Rending and monoliths

[Captain Malachi]

I did a search and didnt find what I was looking for, so I was wondering if anyone could clear it up for me, if you score a rending hit on a monolith, do you get the bonus? Or does it's living metal rule cancel out your bonus?

[WarpSpawn]

As far as I am aware, it cancels out any and all bonuses to penetration or negative modifiers to armour (like lance weapons). About the only thing that does work is CC weapons that modify the user's own strength.

 

So no, bonus penetration from rending would not apply.

[Captain Malachi]

OK, thanks, I thought that was it, but a mate was arguing it.

[nighthawks]

living metal cancels everything that might be considered a bonus: tank hunters, AP1, double pen for melta, rending, lances, chainfists, etc... only strength doubling weapons like fists seem to be imune to the living metal rule :blush:

[WarpSpawn]

What about things that add to strength, like relic blades? I'm assuming the same logic applies as with fists, that you are calculating the base strength of the attack and not adding a bonus to it.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

You get your added strength.

Imagine if you didn't, S6 Dreadnoughts vs Monoliths ^_^

[nighthawks]

yeah - same vein as fists, though not "doubling" so I was not correct in using that word. I would think they keep their base S, which is the modified user S. (double, +X, 10, whatever)

[SeattleDV8]

I believe we still get the +1 for AP1 since that is for the damage roll and not the penetration roll. Hard to say with Necrons though.

[Frogstaff]

I'm pretty sure that AP 1 still works just fine against Monoliths, just like it did last edition.

[WarpSpawn]

You get your added strength.

Imagine if you didn't, S6 Dreadnoughts vs Monoliths ;)

 

Yeah, Ok I did not think the relic blades example through. I was more concerned with the concept that the specific case though. Let's face it, plenty of fists will hardly make a dent in it either.

[Cornishman]

living metal cancels everything that might be considered a bonus: tank hunters, AP1, double pen for melta, rending, lances, chainfists, etc... only strength doubling weapons like fists seem to be imune to the living metal rule :D

 

I disagree about Tank Hunters, looking at the rule book and the latest FAQ it doesn't mention TH in the Living Metal rule. So I'd say TH still applies as TH:

- Adds a bonus to penetration rolls

- Does not add extra dice to the penetration roll

- Does not treat the AV as lower

Only the last two are countered by Living Metal rule.

[nighthawks]

re-reading - the "no bonuses of any kind" (specifically mentioning the tank hunter skill) is in the older FAQ. suprised they took that out...

 

so LM basically does away with the specifically stated extra penetration "dice" (melta, rending, chainfist) and AV modifying (lance), etc... (from the codex) but does not remove bonuses to damage nor cancel strength-modifying weapons. I am completely happy with this definition

 

HOWEVER, the bonus to the penetration roll of Tank Hunters falls into the "bonus dice" or "reduced AV" arena, as it could be seen as effectively either one. Tank Hunters is NOT a modification to the weapon strength, by RAW (add 1 to armour pen roll) which I think we all agree is not cancelled by Living Metal, though it is, again, effectively the same thing as pen roll and weapon S sum. BUT as it only affects armour pen on vehicles, it is distinclty NOT a weapon strength modifier, so that argument won't stand. Not having the specific mention in the new FAQ doesn't make Tank Hunters effects lost , but VERY strict RAW does as +1 is not a die roll.

 

given past precident (yeah, we all know it's not valid, but still) and the agreement in kind with the type of modifiers canceled by living metal, I would still say Tank Hunters is NOT effective against a monolith.

[Cornishman]

nighthawks, as I've only started playing again since right at the end of 4th, I was just judging the situation by the materail available under 5th (I didn't look it up until just after 5th came out and I started playing again regularly). I would agree it is very interesting that it should be FAQ-ed to specifically include that TH doesn't apply, under 4E but this specific inclusion should not be present under the 5th edition FAQ.

 

It is also interesting to note that it is getting more difficult for a unit to get the TH skill, with the release of the new marine codex (which would have been W.I.P during 5th development) tactical/devastator squads with TH are mostly a thing of the past (Sicarius can give you one tactical), off the top of my head I can only think of Eldar Firedragons who can now select this skill as standard.

 

If I had a unit with TH and came across a Necron player who said TH wouldn't work I'd be most insistent they showed me where it says that, as otherwise it is, for all intents and purposes nigh on unkillable.

[nighthawks]

nighthawks, as I've only started playing again since right at the end of 4th, I was just judging the situation by the materail available under 5th (I didn't look it up until just after 5th came out and I started playing again regularly). I would agree it is very interesting that it should be FAQ-ed to specifically include that TH doesn't apply, under 4E but this specific inclusion should not be present under the 5th edition FAQ.

yes, I know old data is not admissible, except when it supports an idea. My basis is not THAT it was in the FAQ, but supported by that fact. there is nothing that explicitly negates the TH skill not being applciable against living metal in the new FAQ, either. my case, I believe, stand up even without the FAQ as "supporting evidence."

It is also interesting to note that it is getting more difficult for a unit to get the TH skill, with the release of the new marine codex (which would have been W.I.P during 5th development) tactical/devastator squads with TH are mostly a thing of the past (Sicarius can give you one tactical), off the top of my head I can only think of Eldar Firedragons who can now select this skill as standard.

No argument, it was just one in a long list of things both affecting and ignored by living metal, and the rule still exists in the new book.

If I had a unit with TH and came across a Necron player who said TH wouldn't work I'd be most insistent they showed me where it says that, as otherwise it is, for all intents and purposes nigh on unkillable.

the monolith is a tough customer, no argument. but as I said before, I think the logic of my argument is sound.

[Cornishman]

nighthawks, good points. I guess this is another wonderful bit of GW rules writting.