Leethal Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Anyways, there was an Ork player using his mobs to obscure 50%+ of each mob with another mob.......so they would infact gain a cover save. Now is this legal? I'm just curious, because some people at my place said that was "legal, cheesy and beardy as hell but legal." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiric Hakon Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Yep, that's legal off the top of my head. I'd have to check my rulebook to tell you exactly. Edit: I was wrong, my apologies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Well as long as 50% was obscured I see no reason why it isn't legal, but yes, it's cheesy, oh so cheesy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
frost_reaver Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Yep, completely legal. i don't know that I'd say cheesy though. Considering the standard save on an Ork, I'd be inclined to do the same thing. Meat Shields FTW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leethal Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 Yep, completely legal. i don't know that I'd say cheesy though. Considering the standard save on an Ork, I'd be inclined to do the same thing. Meat Shields FTW. This was a 3000 Point Game for both sides. The FoC be damned! style of a game. So basically semi-Apoc, and the Ork player had............300-600 Orks doing this. I almost felt sorry for the Ultramarines. Key word here, ALMOST. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 3000pt game? Well its legal, and if with 3000pts of marines you havnt bothered to deploy and nice big blast templates (whirlwinds) then well shame to be him ;) This is under 5th edition a legitimate tactic that you will see brought up more and more in games as people learn about how to use it effectivly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoopxi Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 The way to beat it is to use cover save ignoring weapons... or shoot the front mob/squad that doesn't have a cover save. In alot of cases its what you want to do anyway with orks... keep them out of CC long as you can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 The way to beat it is to use cover save ignoring weapons... or shoot the front mob/squad that doesn't have a cover save. In alot of cases its what you want to do anyway with orks... keep them out of CC long as you can. You can't shoot the front unit because the units are intermixed. So each squad gives the other a cover save. I believe this is what the OP was referring to anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Bleh, thats a bit cheesy then. Mobs 'behind' other mobs, I have no problem with, but... mixing them up, delibeartly for the save? just akes shooting awkward (especially as, visually, all orks look the same nowadays). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1724753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTang Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Intermixing's legal, but difficult to pull off properly. Moving's harder. Assaulting it screws them up a bit because of counterassault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Yeah, but it's beardy/cheesy. You do this (x,o=model): x o x o x o x o o x o x o x o x Practically wherever you fire from, half the squad is obscured, so they get their 4+. I've seen Marine players put PG/PC up in the front and do this :wub: +edit: that was supposed to be X shaped+ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Intermixing is NOT legal, you may not have a model from 1 squad finish movement within 1" of a model from another squad and models from the same squad have to be within 2" of each other leaving no room to squeeze an extra boy in there. So thats not legal and even attempting it is cheesy as hell. Personally I'd say neither unit had a cover save if someone tried to do that to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gothard Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Er, well, I'm not sure if that's actually correct, Mal, but you should probably want to note this now, that standard 40k small bases are less than 1" slightly. So it may ACTUALLY be legal, if you measure everything correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 I'll have to scramble off to a rule book and study it... I recall that shooting through your own units causes cover saves on the target unit...shooting his units scrambled up as intermixed...I do not recall that at all as offering any cover. A suitably intermixed unit may actually be considered one larger unit for purposes of targeting. Some units deliberatly give cover saves to following units, depending on codex wording? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTang Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 There are some threads elsewhere about it. It fits the rules but may be a tactical mistake. Coherency requires models in one unit to be within 2" from each other. The keep at least 1" away rule only applies against enemy units. When you move the models in one unit, they are not allowed to cross over the bases of another unit. That's one way movement is more complicated. Things in this formation are more negatively affected by template weapons and blasts. Things that assault, tank shock, or pin can throw two units off at the cost of an attack against one unit. They can't shoot out as well, because the other unit is blocking their way. If you carelessly take off one casualty from one unit, the just barely 50% cover vanishes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitan Montag Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Further to GTang's excellent points - If you're getting "cheesed" off with your opponent doing this, force them to move there units By the book - i.e. move one whole unit before the other one and measure the 6" for each model. If they still find it possible to interlock units they'll probably get bored with it and start looking for some proper cover to hide behind Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1725721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 GUYS - I want to make it clear that just becouse YOU dont like an option or a tactic that follows the rules does not mean that it is a broken rule, cheesy, beardy or anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1727106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
northoceanbeach Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I would play like a dick the whole game and slow as hell and hope he'd quit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1727283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXwarsmithXx Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Seems like a decent tactic for static/defense, but for offense I wouldnt want it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1727296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playa Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Hey, just becouse YOU dont like an option or a tactic that follows the rules does not mean that it is a broken rule This rule seems broken because it's so easily exploited by people that aren't interested in friendly games - They'd rather "game the game" than simulate silly futuristic battles - which I take to be the point of 40k. If confronted by such a "tactic", I'd ask the player if he wanted to be clever or have a nice match . . . Admittedly, it's interesting as a theoretical exercise, but on the table it's still Dickhammer. Still, it should prove tedious enough at tournaments that J. Regul will FAQ its eyes out. Until then, I'm on record as to how I'll nullify this "option". Playa Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1727404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Intermixing is NOT legal, you may not have a model from 1 squad finish movement within 1" of a model from another squad and models from the same squad have to be within 2" of each other leaving no room to squeeze an extra boy in there. Yeah, this is almost entirely wrong. Intermixing is legal. You may end models within 1" of friendly models. You just can't move within 1" of enemy models. 2" between models is more than enough room to allow an ork or even two to squeeze into it. Ork bases are only 25 cm in diameter (less than an inch). I honestly can't figure out how you made this mistake. It is perfectly possible, say with two units of thirty orks, to line up a handful from the first unit, then a handful from the second unit, then the rest of the first (one of which is within 2" of the first rank, of course) and then the rest of the second unit behind those. For example: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 Both units get cover pretty handily from this formation and it is perfectly legal. Moving is tough, but by leaving gaps in each row (remember that shooting through a gap between two models in the same unit still provides cover) you can minimize the difficulty, since you can keep your guys in formation and still have plenty of room to move models between them. So thats not legal and even attempting it is cheesy as hell. Not only is it entirely legal, it seems pretty reasonable. Personally I'd say neither unit had a cover save if someone tried to do that to me. That would be cheating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1727782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 2" between models is more than enough room to allow an ork or even two to squeeze into it. Ork bases are only 25 cm in diameter (less than an inch). I honestly can't figure out how you made this mistake. Because you have to move each squad seperately, so you have to have room between the models for you to move the boys through and stay within 2" this leaves you approx 1mm breathing space... no one and I mean NO ONE is that precise on a gaming table. Now as to forming boys up in a line, this leave them unable to fire with most of the unit as the boys at the back will not be able to draw line of fire through the second unit. If the units were staggered, for example: X = ork unit a O = ork unit b _ = space X_X_X_X_X _O_O_O_O_ X_X_X_X_X _O_O_O_O_ As you can draw line of fire through your own unit (even if they completly block LoS) this arrangement allows the whole unit to move and shoot without obstructing each other, also the distance between the models is only 1.41" approx leaving more breathing room. I will put my hands up and admit to getting the 1" of friendly wrong, it is indeed only 1" of enemy. Also as a side note please refrain from even implying I am a cheater, yes I made a mistake, but that was completly uncalled for, I have never, nor will I ever cheat. Now to the OP. What size are these mobs? if they are only 10-15 man size then who cares, pop a few off then they will be taking tests (and boys are not difficult to kill). If they are 30 man sizes then simply state that all squads have to move individually and cannot pass over a freindly models base, this will ruin this stragety for latge units. (also his units need to be clearly defined) However ramming will not work as large units of boys are fearless and will simply step out of the way. A vindicator will ruin their day as the boys will have to be pretty close together and that template will take a huge number of boys out. All things considering, from an ork perspective its a flawed plan, ok the orks get a 4+ cover save, but then so does EVERY thing else they try to shoot at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1728040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Because you have to move each squad seperately, so you have to have room between the models for you to move the boys through and stay within 2" this leaves you approx 1mm breathing space... no one and I mean NO ONE is that precise on a gaming table. Not really. Two inches between models means two whole inches between models. With the models only being 25mm, that means that you can fit a model in between them with over an inch to spare. Fiddle around with it, sometime--it's not even hard. It's the sort of organizational puzzle that your average five-year-old could probably figure out given an hour or so-- surely you can manage it. =P Also, I didn't call you a cheater. You stated that you would pursue a course of action which would be breaking the rules. Since I had gone to the trouble of informing you of the rules, it would constitute cheating for you to knowingly break them in the future. Thus my statement being, "that would be cheating," rather than, "you are a cheater." It would be cheating to deny your opponent his cover saves were he to actually get his units intermingled properly. If you would deny those saves (as you suggested you might) it would make you a cheater. If you don't want to be a cheater, don't deny your opponent his rightful cover saves, even if you don't approve of the method by which he obtains them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1728251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Skaav Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Confession time I think, because not only am I a (returning) Space Marine Player, I am also an Ork Player, and to be honest with you, I wouldn't have the nerve to do this with an Ork unit, even if they are partially obscured I would think of the Orks as moving targets anyway, considering they usually run towards the nearest enemy (hence the Waagh!), Orks are only a 6-up save anyway, and if you have plenty of units on the table, I don't think it really matters too much if you lose on or 2. Space Marines I don't think even need to worry about this rule anyway, what with their 3-up/2-up armour save. Yes, I know this forum has nothing to do with Orks, I know there are some out there who will question why I'm bringing up the mention of my Xeno army, when I should be talking about my Imperial army, but I'm using it as an example, of why I personally wouldn't worry myself with this particular techinicality, after all, isn't that the whole purpose of which ruins and building are for? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1728256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 No worries Commander Shaav the rules Forum is open to the entire game. Welcome back to the Marine side of war. The only problem I see it that to do the intermixing legally, the squads have to be very clear. if squad A looks like squad B it would be too easy to slide damage to another squad. The orc's aren't noted for the speed of their turns, intermixed movement is going to be even slower. As an opponent I would be counting models in my shooting phase to see if I could get a clear shot....more slow down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148520-errcover-saves/#findComment-1728277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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