Err...Cover Saves?

[Mal]

Because you have to move each squad seperately, so you have to have room between the models for you to move the boys through and stay within 2" this leaves you approx 1mm breathing space... no one and I mean NO ONE is that precise on a gaming table.

 

Not really. Two inches between models means two whole inches between models. With the models only being 25mm, that means that you can fit a model in between them with over an inch to spare. Fiddle around with it, sometime--it's not even hard. It's the sort of organizational puzzle that your average five-year-old could probably figure out given an hour or so-- surely you can manage it. =P

 

Also, I didn't call you a cheater. You stated that you would pursue a course of action which would be breaking the rules. Since I had gone to the trouble of informing you of the rules, it would constitute cheating for you to knowingly break them in the future. Thus my statement being, "that would be cheating," rather than, "you are a cheater."

 

It would be cheating to deny your opponent his cover saves were he to actually get his units intermingled properly. If you would deny those saves (as you suggested you might) it would make you a cheater. If you don't want to be a cheater, don't deny your opponent his rightful cover saves, even if you don't approve of the method by which he obtains them.

 

Ok I was trying to be polite, but there is NO REASON for your insult there, I am certinally smarter than the average 5 year old, and if you care to read my post I showed you the solution, which I might add was a darned sight better than yours.

 

I also admitted to the mistake, so I would not in future now I will ask you again DON'T CALL ME A CHEATER!!!!!! EVER!!!

 

Now to calm this down a bit...

 

go back and read my post properly, it already coveres everything you mention meaning there was no use for your insulting post other than to febilishly attempt to flame me... well sorry to inform you mr-Ubermarine but I wear flame proof armour ;)

[Cale]

Er... I didn't insult you. In fact, I specifically said that I thought you were smarter than a five-year-old. I also never called you a cheater or even implied that you were one. Please stop blatantly lying about what I've said.

[Moosi]

New poster to B+C here, I play Orks, but seeing as 80%+ of my opponents are MEQs I tend to skulk here a fair bit.

 

Anyway, intermingling units. A product of 5th cover rules, and about as cheesy (if you want) as being able to have 4 marines with bolters hide out of sight with a lascannon in full view, and have a unit in cover.

 

That being said, intermingling is a lot harder to pull off if you want to move any where. Any time the units run, or connect with difficult terrain, they should spread out, stopping one of the units from getting cover.

 

The only effective use of intermingling large boys mobs have been with shooty rather than choppy mobs, since they aren't running. It concentrates your forces on one spot, and makes maneuver next to impossible. Oh, and you really need mobs painted in differing colours. Makes a big infantry firebase. I'm pretty sure IG could do something along the same lines.

 

For all the extra hassle, the stupidly long movement phases (wishes for army trays :lol:) and the fact your opponent will lose patience with you, it's often better to just get a Mek with a Force Field, and screen your troops in the traditional manner: Grots or choppy orcs, kans and dreads.

 

If you're running into this a lot, and you're not sure how to deal with it, here's a few pointers. Nothing changes annoying play like being shown it doesn't work :P

- Assault them. Especially with walkers. The mingled units often struggle to get the anything like their full weight to bear. So tear them up with your 'let assault troops.

- Templates. Of all flavours. Mingled units should give you much more bang for your buck. Aim the near the midle, and even 8" scatters should get some

- Tank Shock. Whilst the big mobs will pass their check, you can park your tank over an edge of the mob, and force the nice ordered lines around. Rhinos doing 6" tank shocks then having a flamer fire out are nice.

 

Play nice all ;)

[angronn]

It's an irritating tactic, but mainly if you've got the templates you were going to use on the Ork boyz anyway, it shouldn't be too difficult to break.

 

It does however highlight the thing that annoyed me about "units grant cover saves", which is that if your shots are being stopped by another unit, one would expect the meatshield to be taking casualties instead. Well, fluff-wise anyway. I know this would slow the game mechanics down so isn't viable, but seeing plasma cannon shots stopped by unharmed Ork boyz isn't fun.

[greatcrusade08]

Hi guys my 2 cents....

 

A few years back space marines had to fire at the closest target anyway, which is why orks had the whole meat shield thing going. So getting cover saves from obscuring units makes sense now this rule doesnt apply.

 

However the topic is about intermingling (with the exception of some handbags at dawn from cale and mal)

GW's intention in my opinion with the rule about 50% in cover to get the save was an attempt to speed up the game and make it run smoother.

Whenever a new rule is brought in you will always find someone who can misuse it. but as a note most of these misuses can benefit most armies. So next time he plays do it to him.

Ok in this example its orks getting a cover save from each other and you cant really play that against them, but if its within the rules youll just have to play smarter next time.

Take more whirlies and template weapons, that'll teach them!

 

Lets face it if they are smallish units you can pin them or kill a couple and make them fall back.

If they are large units then the enemy has put a huge points sink into one footslogging 'uber unit', just stay out of there way until you whittle them down.

Also if you had template weaps like frags or flamers, you get to place them, just whittle down one unit until he can no longer obscure the others with enough numbers!

imagine this.

 

xxxx oooo You kill one from the 'x' unit

oooo xxxx

 

xxx oooo

oooo xxxx

 

Well now the 'x' squad isnt gunna get a cover save, so bolter fire is gunna destroy them.

And as you fire one unit at a time if you do enough damage to 'x' the next unit can fire at 'o' with them getting no cover save either.

 

Hope this makes sense!

 

Edit: typo

[greatcrusade08]

but seeing plasma cannon shots stopped by unharmed Ork boyz isn't fun.

 

Plasma cannons use templates and hence dont have to roll to hit as such

Also they dont have to roll to over heat

[Legatus]

Plasma cannons use templates and hence dont have to roll to hit as such

Also they dont have to roll to over heat

Plasma cannon wounds can still be saved by cover saves, the way you roll to hit does not affect that. And they do over heat if carried by infantry.

[greatcrusade08]

Plasma cannons use templates and hence dont have to roll to hit as such

Also they dont have to roll to over heat

Plasma cannon wounds can still be saved by cover saves, the way you roll to hit does not affect that. And they do over heat if carried by infantry.

 

Yup i stand corrected on the cover saves,

but i always thought the plasma cannons in 5th didnt roll to hit, if this was the case a roll of a 1 cannot happen, how am i getting this wrong?

[SeattleDV8]

A infantry unit makes a Gets Hot roll before firing . on a one it overheats and doees not fire.

[Frogstaff]

Plasma cannons use templates and hence dont have to roll to hit as such

Also they dont have to roll to over heat

Plasma cannon wounds can still be saved by cover saves, the way you roll to hit does not affect that. And they do over heat if carried by infantry.

 

Yup i stand corrected on the cover saves,

but i always thought the plasma cannons in 5th didnt roll to hit, if this was the case a roll of a 1 cannot happen, how am i getting this wrong?

You need to reread the 'Gets hot!' rule on page 31, more importantly, the paragraph titled 'Gets hot and blast weapons.'

[greatcrusade08]

Will do guys, Thanks

Thats one less embarrassing incident at the gaming table!!

[maniclurker]

Alrighty, so to wrap it up:

 

Yes, it's legal to intermingle like this.

However, it will slow down the orks, because moving will be made more difficult.

Slowing down orks is good, because the are an assaulty army.

 

As such, yes, they do get a 4+ cover save, but they aren't getting to you as quickly. This means you can shoot them more, which means more of them are dead before they get to you.

 

Options to counter this regardless:

 

1. Whirlwinds- They are barrage weapons, so they fire OVER the intervening models. As such, there isn't even a need to use the special cover save ignoring round. Just use the regular ST5 shot, and reap orks by the bucket load. Once they are reduced in number, they'll have to start taking pinning checks at -1. If a squad gets pinned, then this whole strategy becomes messed up, and will definitely serve to further slow down the army.

 

2. Flamers and Heavy Flamers- I don't believe there is even a need to elaborate about their useage.

 

3. Thunderfire Cannons- You could go with the cover save ignoring shot, or you could go with the difficult ground shot. I think the difficult ground shot would end up making the ork movement so ridiculous, that they'd flounder and go nowhere. The cover save ignoring shot would, of course, cause orks to die in droves.

 

4. Assault- If you assault them, their countercharge will be extremely jacked up. In all likeliness, 1 of the nobs won't even be able to get into combat. They will be so inneffective that they'll lose.

[Mal]

Will do guys, Thanks

Thats one less embarrassing incident at the gaming table!!

 

Eh? how so? IIRC it was ME shooting YOU with the plasma cannon.... (or cannons in this case...gotta love oblits), and you did make cover saves... a lot of them if I remember rightly.... (you'd think it wouldn't be thast hard to flush a couple of scouts of a tree.... well you'd think)

[greatcrusade08]

Ok guys, i made a good point about how do potentially deal with intermingling orks, and everyone has lost interest and got hung up on my misunderstanding of plasma cannon rules...

Its strange how these things work!!!!

 

Lets get back on topic shall we

[Frostea]

Wouldn't tyranids with their monstrous creatures and pie plates totally ignore the cover save since they wouldn't be obscured at all? Same goes for walkers.

 

Also, assuming the formation was a column as shown by Cale, wouldn't a tank shock through the middle (and having the tank to stop in the middle of the formation) screw things up even if both groups was fearless?

[Cale]

It isn't really a question of whether the formation could be dealt with (though an MC would have to be pretty absudly tall--I'm talking a foot or two--to see completely over the front orks to the orks behind from anywhere outside of 12") but whether it's possible at all, and whether it's legal if it is possible.

 

The answers to both are obvious--it is legal and it is possible. Methods for getting around it aren't really the right material for the rules forum.