Chaos - Escaping Ork Mentality

[Drudge Dreadnought]

As time has gone by i've gotten a lot better at winning games. But i don't think i've really gotten any better at playing the game, just at building lists and letting them run. Chaos is a strong army and i fear that it has spoiled me to some extent. The problem is that all that i do in any given game is: Deploy rhinos in cover, then bum rush the enemy and win in CC because i've got berzerkers and ubergrit. Thats about it. Sure there are various tactical decisions to make like who attacks what enemy unit and where do i send my HQ, when do i pop smoke, but generally the answers to those questions are kind of obvious. My lists are good at what they do, but they are one trick ponies and its just getting a bit boring. The problem is i don't seem to have many other options. I can build other sorts of CSM lists but a good deal of them will simply not be viable or competitive enough. And again while the current tactic is effective, it will never get any more effective and so will lose consistently to enemies over a certain skill threshold. Its an easy list to play and in return will only ever be so good.

 

So i suppose i'm looking to make my list more interesting to play, and i wouldn't mind a harder style of list if it ultimately allowed me to be more powerful and effective. Does anybody have any advice on what sorts of things to try either in the unit, theme, or tactics department? Any body else feeling this way about this codex? I havn't bothered to post an actual list because they are just the usual sort of effective chaos list we see around that pretty much plays itself.

[Rain]

Isn't that what everyone does? The only variation is that some people use lash to bring them to you so you can bumrush them even faster. Maybe I'm just a cynic but I don't think "skill" at Warhammer is indicative of much of anything other than how willing you are to min/max your list. Honestly I can barely think of any list other than the ones nobody plays anyway like Dark Eldar or Elysians or something that don't basically run themselves.

[the jeske]

My lists are good at what they do, but they are one trick ponies and its just getting a bit boring.

welcome to the new dex .

Honestly I can barely think of any list other than the ones nobody plays anyway like Dark Eldar or Elysians or something that don't basically run themselves.

oh DE can go auto pilot , specially the wych cult armies . the portal builds out of normal DE are more or less the same .

 

Elysians are auto pilot too , they are just a drop pod army that doesnt use sm , but has more units [that die faster] . But I do agree with you w40k and WFB is won at the army build and meta game lvl . The only choices a player makes is stuff like "I stuned the tank do I want to destroy it ? " "If i charge and win is my squad going to survive in cover ?" etc .

[Tfcdogbert]

Its not so much a tactical game, its a logistical exercise, having the right resources to do the job and getting those resources to the point where they will be most effective.

 

Im not sure what to suggest, i have my list that i love to play very much, all i can suggest is you mix up your play style, maybe add some shooty and use your zerkers as counter charge units for example? Change the way you play.

[minigun762]

I always try to limit myself by the fluff of whatever particular legion I'm playing.

 

We all know which units are the power units in the codex, but using the fluffy units for your army and still winning, thats a challenge.

 

I"m not saying you have to bring the D squad and try to struggle through a victory, but using those units that you'd love to use, or look really good but aren't the best can add some challenge and thought to the game.

 

The other idea is to work with a reactionary army, kind of like the Water Warrior one for Grey Knights. For you, it sounds like you're basically using a Fire army, very aggressive, strong but rather one dimensional. Look over that article and it might give you some different ways to grow your army.

[Lady_Canoness]

IMO the most enjoyable armies to play are Swordwind Eldar and pure Deathwing - they never get old or boring.

 

Ok, to respond to the actual question. After play a few one trick pony lists, I would recommend that you try building a perfectly balance force that has equal measures of mobility, numbers, firepower, and assault power. You should then see that no one tatic or trick will dictate your play style.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The other idea is to work with a reactionary army, kind of like the Water Warrior one for Grey Knights. For you, it sounds like you're basically using a Fire army, very aggressive, strong but rather one dimensional. Look over that article and it might give you some different ways to grow your army.

 

I just finished reading it (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214&hl=%5Cwater+warrior%5C) and that is an amazing article! It may be aimed at GK, but the basic concepts of it apply to anyone. While i think Chaos would usually be considered to be very fire oriented, we are hardly lacking in water units. That tactica is exactly the sort of thing i was hoping for when i made this thread.

[chillin]

My lists are good at what they do, but they are one trick ponies and its just getting a bit boring. The problem is i don't seem to have many other options. I can build other sorts of CSM lists but a good deal of them will simply not be viable or competitive enough.

 

So i suppose i'm looking to make my list more interesting to play, and i wouldn't mind a harder style of list if it ultimately allowed me to be more powerful and effective. Any body else feeling this way about this codex?

 

OMG you post is practically a check list of some of the most common complaints of the csm 4.0 dex.

Boring, Lack of options, all games playing the same. Welcome to C:csm 4.0 !

 

I would suggest dropping you brzrkrs (definately don't take lash), and making a more shooty list, take some units and options you don't usually take.

Rely on firepwr and not chainswords and it will force you to play differently.

[Xenocidal Maniac]

Woooow!!! The new dex haters even manage to infiltate this thread and turn it into a CSM dex hatefest! Wow guys! Good job! Still not letting it go after all this time.

 

But seriously, on topic, I've never been able to figure what game you guys who complain about "auto-pilot" armies are playing. I don't seem to have that problem. Could be because I am dumb, I suppose, but I find a tactical challenge in just about every game I play. Maybe try taking less points effective units such as possessed, spawn, or bikes? I find that I have very challenging and fun games when I field bikes and termies. They are both units that I love, but I don't find them to be as points effective as many of our other units.

 

Or try completely theming your army? For instance, I don't take any tanks whatsoever in my Khorne themed army. It's all infantry, Rhinos, and walkers. Makes for more of a challenge, I guess.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Woooow!!! The new dex haters even manage to infiltate this thread and turn it into a CSM dex hatefest! Wow guys! Good job! Still not letting it go after all this time.

 

Yeah I know, they're very virulent.

 

Or try completely theming your army? For instance, I don't take any tanks whatsoever in my Khorne themed army. It's all infantry, Rhinos, and walkers. Makes for more of a challenge, I guess.

 

My theme includes no static firepower. I don't have any heavy weapons, even on models that can move and fire with them. It's all about moving fast (and not necessarily to assault- there's plenty more you could move towards).

 

I might add some Vindicators, but they fit the theme (still close range, still mobile, still fluff-wise designed to move forward with the advance and lay down fire). Plus... well... I desperately need something for hordes, and I feel that a pair of these will help me out greatly.

[the jeske]

But seriously, on topic, I've never been able to figure what game you guys who complain about "auto-pilot" armies are playing.

I play the EC water warrior dual lash /oblits/NM list different from the normal Zerke/Pm/oblits/double lash list played in most tournaments . More challanging , because its less forgiving [no T5 FnP or WS5 with more attacks then normal].

 

Chaos is an auto pilot list , because in most cases no matter what army your opponent plays the first 4 turns look the same [its like IW or eldar in the 4th] .It does get boring really fast . As divergant units or army builds go. Well I would use bikes/havocks/tanks or possessed , if they were half as good as the main options in the new chaos dex . Am not going to replace scoring NM or Zerkers with possessed [random /non scoring etc ] or replace oblits with hvy support dreads [dont think I have to explain that] 5man raptors anti tanks with bikes [the cost to make them ok is too big] . But I guess for me the problem is that what you people do now with normal games [testing if unit X or Y may work ok in some set up] I did with 8 hours of playtesting for almost a month , when we got the leaked dex .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well so far the results of me looking at this stuff have caused me to go more tzeentch and come up with the following list:

 

Totals: 1499 pts, 32 infantry, 3 armor, 9 kill points, 3 scoring units.

 

HQ - 300

 

160 - Terminator Lord: Daemon Weapon, Mark of Tzeentch

 

140 - Daemon Prince: Wings, Doombolt

 

Elites - 445

 

205 - Terminators x4: Power Fist, Reaper Autocannon, Combi Plasma x3, Icon of Tzeentch

 

240 - Possessed Land Raider

 

Troops - 754

 

265 - Chaos Marines x10: Champion, Power Fist, Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun x2, Rhino

 

289 - Thousand Sons x8, Sorcerer: Doombolt, Rhino

 

200 - Noise Marines x8: Sonic Blaster x8

 

The goal of this list was to have all the units be flexible and be capable of moving and shooting. Now obviously the actual viability/competitiveness of this list is highly questionable, but i think it will be fun to play it a couple games in order to get me to try some new tactics even if i don't win. (and i'll still win against some of the people i play).

[minigun762]

Well so far the results of me looking at this stuff have caused me to go more tzeentch and come up with the following list:

 

Totals: 1499 pts, 32 infantry, 3 armor, 9 kill points, 3 scoring units.

 

HQ - 300

 

160 - Terminator Lord: Daemon Weapon, Mark of Tzeentch

 

140 - Daemon Prince: Wings, Doombolt

 

Elites - 445

 

205 - Terminators x4: Power Fist, Reaper Autocannon, Combi Plasma x3, Icon of Tzeentch

 

240 - Possessed Land Raider

 

Troops - 754

 

265 - Chaos Marines x10: Champion, Power Fist, Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun x2, Rhino

 

289 - Thousand Sons x8, Sorcerer: Doombolt, Rhino

 

200 - Noise Marines x8: Sonic Blaster x8

 

The goal of this list was to have all the units be flexible and be capable of moving and shooting. Now obviously the actual viability/competitiveness of this list is highly questionable, but i think it will be fun to play it a couple games in order to get me to try some new tactics even if i don't win. (and i'll still win against some of the people i play).

 

You might want to post this in the army section but I think the list has more potential to be fun and varied.

3 Scoring units looks to be a little bit tiny to me. I'd probably drop the Reaper to a Combi-Weapon and lose the Daemon Prince. Use the 160 Points to either grab some Lesser Daemons, or add in another Rhino squad maybe?

 

Another thing that would make a list more fun I think is not having any redundant units (like 2 Plague Marines or 3 Vindicators) which you have

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Aye i'll post it in the army list section after its tweaked a little more. I just put it here because it was a result of the discussion in this thread. I don't want to hijack my own thread and turn it into list discussion, but i will comment on your comments.

 

I usually run 1 scoring unit per 500 points in a list, so 3 is standard for me and has always worked out fine. Also since this isn't an assault oriented army they will probably remain on my side of the board for the most part, so close to my objective(s).

 

The reaper i'll admit is odd. Normally i speak against them. But this seemed to be a situation where they will actually be useful, as i will be using the terminator squad in a style similar to the one discussed in the GK water warrior tactica. The squad is designed to have mobile shooting potential, it won't just be sitting in the land raider and then assaulting. I'm sure that will happen at some point in the game, but i intend to get several rounds of shooting in first.

 

The daemon prince is there because it is pretty much the most versatile unit in the codex. I often find myself taking a DP over something like a defiler, dread, or other tank simply because they are so amazing for their cost. The prince can deal with any threat, and with wings he can be in the right place to respond to them. The doombolt gives him something to fire off at the enemy on his way into assaults, or even just while waiting for them to advance. He's also small enough to get cover from terrain and my transports.

 

160 points of deamons isn't going to do much, and i can't get a very worthwhile rhino squad for it either.

 

I agree about the redundant units, but i'm not sure which you are reffering to? Every squad is a different unit type.

 

I do appreciate the comments and i'm not meaning this as a rebuke. I am simply explaining the rationale behind the list and my reasons for taking the choices i've got, despite some of them being a bit odd.

[minigun762]

Oh I wasn't saying you had redundant units, I was just making a general comment about lists. When you spam the same type of unit, even if its good, you're kinda limited as far as what you can do. Redundcy is good, but can be boring (unless you just LOVE that unit)

 

The Reaper makes sense how you're going to use it, and its not a bad weapon by any means, just pricey.

 

The Daemon Prince is a total steal. I like the Winged MoKhorne version, same price, extra attack. I just pointed it out because I tend to run more troops, something like 2 units at 500, 3 at 1000, 4 at 1500 etc, so thats just my personal opinion. I think you'll have more fun with this, the different units all excel in different elements, in a way Chaos can be kind of like Eldar, especially the Cult troops.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah i use the MoK Prince a lot too. I'm trying DB because i expect hope to be able to shoot it several times a game. I've never tried it before though, so i may find myself quickly returning to MoK.

 

And i totally agree about redundancy.

[minigun762]

Yeah i use the MoK Prince a lot too. I'm trying DB because i expect hope to be able to shoot it several times a game. I've never tried it before though, so i may find myself quickly returning to MoK.

 

Let me know how DoomBolt works for you. I'm doing the same thing with my Daemon Prince.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I played a 2k version of this list in a game earlier today (the same but with an assault oriented termie squad and another marine squad.

 

It was tons of fun. I lost by a hair, and that was after making some massive blunders. I thought i'd pretty much screwed myself on turn 2 when he killed both my vanilla marine squads but in the end the game came down to me getting a 2 on the difficult terrain test for my assault terminator squad charging a tac squad. If it had gotten a 3 i would have pulled that squad off two objectives and won.