minigun762 Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 I check over the different lists and ideas being tossed around and over and over again I see the point about Rhinos being included for Troop choices. Transports are better in 5th Edition, no doubt about it and we know that mobility is a huge factor, but even with the advent of the Run ability, it seems like Chaos and marines in general are being forced to be mechanized to be effective. Is this just me being negative or is this something that other people have noticed as well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Sadly it's true, non mechanised lists are at a serious disadvantage, it's GW making us buy more tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1726878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 I never really noticed. The Rhino has always been somewhat ubiquitous. I guess the real decision is whether or not you want to Run your Troops under fire a variable distance each turn, or move them in a semi-armored box an established distance each turn with the box taking the hits. Some things (Plague Marines, 1K Sons) desperately need Rhinos or they run the risk of being battlefield nonentities. Some things (Khorne Berserkers) desperately need Rhinos or they die in a hail of lead before they ever become effective. Other things (Noise Marines, CSMs, Chosen) can be argued either way. At 35 points, the Rhino is a steal, it's impossible to lose the entire squad in a catastrophic explosion on the damage table, there's no more entanglement even if the thing explodes, and if you do lose it to an Immobilized or worse, you can still footslog it. If the list allows the points to spare, taking a Rhino isn't a total waste of space in the miniatures case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1726914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Rhinos are amazing. Beyond the obvious transporting abilities that everybody knows, i'll point out some other great features: Compare a rhino to a regular marine. It only costs 20 points more. For 20 points you get a twin linked bolter, the ability to move 6 inches and fire it, armor that makes you immune to small weapons fire, and the ability to transport models. Sure you can't melee people, but you can tank shock. You can also provide cover, provide armor saturation, and make 12 inch moves to contest stuff. When compared to a regular marine, rhinos are amazing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1726929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 11, 2008 Author Share Posted October 11, 2008 Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Rhinos are bad. I agree 100% that Rhinos are great buys and incredibly useful. My point was more about the big picture. To me, I feel if I want to be competetive, I need to include Rhinos for my Troop choices. The weird thing is this is more true in 5th Edition even though we have the addition of Run, which was supposed to make Footslogging armies more viable. So at the end of the day, I have a very hard time trying to make a non-mechanized list competetive, and this really goes for all marines. The Loyalists atleast have the advantage of Drop Pods and Infiltrating Scouts. While our troops are amazing, they are also dependant on a ride. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1726938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealot Of Chaos Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 at least until GW comes to their senses, slays everyone who had something to do with the 4.0 chaos dex and reverts back to the 3.5 dex or lets dammeron write the new one, then you just use alpha legion and infiltrate everywhere Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1726944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 I use no vehicles in my chaos force. Don't even own any rhinos for Chaos (I own a defiler, Land Raider and dread, but never use them). It works fine, if done correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1727056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen Lord Leo Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 not gonna be using Rhinos in my army, thats what I have screening for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1727084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I think you can get away with not using rhinos in a more defensive style army where you intend to let the enemy come to you. Howerver you do run the serious risk of being outmanuevered by speed themed armies who will tend to crush you. I don't view non-rhino armies as unviable because there is anything wrong with footslogging troops. I view them as unviable because rhinos are so good that you can't pass them up and if the enemy has them you are in trouble. For example if you take 2 lists that are identicle except one has rhinos and the other has a couple more marines for each rhino the enemy has then all else being equal the guy with the rhinos is simply going to win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1727107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
northoceanbeach Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I think you can if you mass bodies. 6 x 10 troops plus whatever. In 1750 I had 81 men and it works. But you really may as well shave 10 off and go for the rhinos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1727464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw83 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Even if I end up with some scenario where my troops might not use their transports - like dawn of war deployment - I find them incredibly useful for blocking enemy LoS and harrassing fire. By chasing two razorbacks that were booking it towards an objective in my last game, I managed to immobilize both with combi-bolter fire. Had the game gone into a seventh turn, Abaddon would have been able to go over and have a little chat with the disembarked squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1727532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 i find Rhinos a must, pretty much for reasons stated above... blocking LOS, rapid deployment, contesting, redirecting foot sloggers... Grim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1727654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 I wanted to play with some numbers in my head, to see how big of a difference not having a Rhino would make. This is purely for distance traveled over the course of a game, so I'm not factoring in all the other things a Rhino can do for you. Assumptions being made 1) Its a 6 turn game 2) the Run rolls are going to be average of the 6 turns 3) Its a 4x6 board with 12" deployment so you could start 48" away from their deployment area 4) No intervening terrain to slow down the advance Rhino Squad: 1st Turn: Zoom forward 12" from your deployment line (36" from opponent's deployment) 2nd Turn: Zoom forward 12" again (24" from opponent's deployment) 3rd Turn: Zoom forward 12" again (12" from opponent's deployment) 4th Turn: Zoom forward 12" again (0" from opponent's deployment) Foot Squad: 1st Turn: Walk 6" and run 3.5" from your deployment line (38.5" from opponent's deployment) 2nd Turn: Walk 6" and run 3.5" from your deployment line (29.0" from opponent's deployment) 3rd Turn: Walk 6" and run 3.5" from your deployment line (19.5" from opponent's deployment) 4th Turn: Walk 6" and run 3.5" from your deployment line (10" from opponent's deployment) 5th Turn: Walk 6" and run 3.5" from your deployment line (0.5" from opponent's deployment) So walking/running up the board, you should barely be able to hit their line between the 5th and 6th turn, depending mostly on how lucky you got with you're +D6. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1728405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I wouldn't play without my Rhinos these days. Making your guys get places faster is only one of the things they do--and they do do it better than running. More importantly, they increase your threat ranges and protect your men. Marines on foot have a threat range of 24" with stationary shots and 18" with mobile shots (a little less than a flamer) and 12" for assaults. Marines in Rhinos have a threat range of roughly 26" inches with mobile shots and almost 15" with assaults. The only thing they lack is threat range with stationary shots (but they can gain that by simply making sure they're out of their Rhinos before they need to take such shots.) Further, Rhinos are fairly resilient, these days, and their destruction is only a minor inconvenience to the troops inside them. Forcing enemies to shoot at your Rhinos before they can even hope to start reducing your model count has saved me, I think, far greater value in Marines than I'd get by dropping the Rhinos and taking more guys. Rhinos are routinely better in virtually every way (except giving up kill points) than similar values of Marines on foot. They have, basically, become necessary for the competitive Chaos list. Noise Marines and Thousand Sons are a significant exception, since they are primarily shooty and retain a long threat range while moving. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1728431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 Rhinos are routinely better in virtually every way (except giving up kill points) than similar values of Marines on foot. They have, basically, become necessary for the competitive Chaos list. Noise Marines and Thousand Sons are a significant exception, since they are primarily shooty and retain a long threat range while moving. Thats my point in a nutshell. I'm not attacking the Codex, because in alot of ways all Marines are suffering from this issue, but it just gets on my nerves when I feel obligated to take something to make myself competetive. I do wonder how well Noise Marines and Rubrics can get away without using them. They do have the longer effective ranges which is nice. Part of the reason I keep looking at a Noise Marine based army list... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1728440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I also wonder about Noise Marines, and I have pretty much stopped buying Rhinos for the Thousand Sons when I use my wife's army. I have a hard enough time fitting stuff into those T-sons lists, and the Rhinos just don't seem critical, because I'm not trying as hard to get up-close and personal with my opponents. Usually, I'm trying to stay away, instead. I certainly see what you mean, though I don't think it really bothers me that much. It's true for most codices that only one or two types of builds are really competive, and I find that I love playing a mechanized army. The important thing is finding an army that has a competitive build that you enjoy playing. The Chaos Marine Codex is that for me, which is why I switched over from Ultramarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1728445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Noise marines with sonic blasters and no rhino work just fine. I never take a rhino for them. However i do take a rhino for my Thousand Sons squad simply because if an enemy is silly enough to move somehting outside cover i need my 1ksons to be able to get in the best position to capitalize on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1728676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 rhinos are good for blocking charges something the 1ksons dont like . + they can sometimes block LoS to mulit shot units . even in NM builds they are useful , must say i didnt see any good 1ksons builds [i mean pure ones not BL lists ] , but techniclly the same principle should work for them too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1728984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord arkon Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Use Rhinos as transport for your ranged support either tooled up chosen, warriors or havocs instead of your assault troops and you will reap the benefits since your support cannot be targeted directly since A the Rhino's in the way whilst their in it, and B since when their out of it it blocks LoS for other enemy units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1729685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMournival Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I use 4 rhinos in my 1500 pts force, all loaded with CSM with bolters and special weapons, after they have sped 12" they pop smoke, then 2nd round move and drop troops off within 12" of the enemy and open fire with all rapid fire weapons! The rhinos join in firing, block line of sight and also have tank shocked a few units off the board in the past! Don't leave them out and at 35pts basic, they are a steal!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1731258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Evar Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Yes rhino's work great with CSM. I am actually going to do some list trimming to get one for my CC chosen. That will give me three at 1.5K pts. Infiltrate sux when chosen are not shooty. It dose not work. Had zero luck with CC infiltrators. Here is how it usually goes down- Opponent- "ZOMG! Uber chosen unit so close!" Me- "Unlucky." Opponent- "Hmm, lets see..." +Much Dakka ensures, along with an inglorious end by drowning in a guardian assult. Not howling banshee's, striking scorpions- guardians. ^_^ + Opponent- "Ah, that was interesting- and you were in cover...." Me- " At least they didn't run away." Opponent- "true, cool conversions average paintjob." Me- "thats my style bro" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1733949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Yes when 5th Ed came out I been useing Rhino a bit more. For me my reason are - I like Mobilty warfare. Sure we can run but rememeber Rhino dose allow use to move 12 inch & fire on the same turn. - Block true line of sight, keep our guy safyer for a little bit longer by sheild them from/limiting return fire power. See my UK Grand Tournament report & 40k Radio world wide war to see how I use mine. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1733970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironknuckle Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I have only one Rhino and thats reserve for my Iron Warriors K. Berzerkers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1734137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 strange I though the same way about the 4th . I used rhinos in chaos to block los , snipe[no longer possible] , move units in to double tap range[i was one of those crazy guys that didnt play gunline or BL] , block charges [now even better because of the lack of consolidation move] etc . Rhinos were always good in chaos only now you have to go full mecha . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1734328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealot Of Chaos Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 out of interest, what equipment do people take on their rhinos currently Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148738-are-rhinos-a-must-have/#findComment-1736181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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