Combat Squads

[Grimfoe]

I'm starting this thread by making a couple of assumptions. (I know..I know)

 

Let's assume we'll receive a new FAQ now that the SM codex has been released.

 

Let's further assume that we'll be able to split our Hunters and Claws into combat squads once that FAQ is issued.

 

How does that change things? I think it will be significant. I currently play with at least 3 Hunter Squads. I'm thinking I'll only take two if we can split into combat squads. It's a real disadvantage to us under the current rules that we cannot. I know that I often have an entire squad of Hunters holding an objective each game that kills nothing. I'd very much like to split that unit and kill stuff with the other half. I might even start mixing special weapons into squads that have close combat ability. We may want to consider leaving some troops without a close combat weapon just to hold the objective.

 

What do you think? How will your list/tactics change?

[Wolf89]

It'd never happen and is very wishful thinking first off.

 

Second off if it ever does happen the wolves would be the most hated army in the game because of how overpowering they'd become.

[OnlyInDeath]

Yeah, I honestly cant see it happening as it's not very "wolfy"

 

Just think of what a 10 man decked out squad has it in for GH as well. 2xpp, a special weapon, and up to 2 pf/pw. I mean, even if you split that up into 2x5 man squads, the amount of hard hitting action you can get out of there is insane. Have a melta and PF squad go off a tank huntin, have 2x pp and a pw to hold objectives and maul anything that comes near them. I think we'd lose any fans we currently have due to the OP'ness of it all.

 

I personally dont mind the larger squads. Sure, they cant hold as many objectives, but i've found the 5 man combat squads to lack the necessary "pop" needed to take down most squads. They are good for holding objectives, but lets face it, a 6 man GH squad can do the same and provide a bit more oomph just in case something comes thier way. I wouldnt trade that for combat squads even if you paid me.

[Grimfoe]

I wouldn't be so sure that it won't happen. I believe the wolves were the first army to introduce combat squads back in the second edition. It's not a stretch to see them in that role. One could argue that it is very wolfy as a result.

 

Anyway, let's assume it does happen. How does that change your list? How many squads do you field? Rhinos or drop pods? etc.

[Wolf89]

All drop pods, all grey hunters, everything dies the end.

[Vassakov]

All drop pods, all grey hunters, everything dies the end.

 

QFT. And then everyone would stop playing us.

[Wolf89]

All drop pods, all grey hunters, everything dies the end.

 

QFT. And then everyone would stop playing us.

 

You mean I'd be able to auto-win tournaments?! That would be sweet... but at the same time there's something about showing up somewhere, getting prizes for no work and no fun that leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

 

I'd probably make a permanent switch to my Khorne if they made combat squads for wolves... unless they limited our array of weaponry, then it might be more of a challenge, but they can't do that in an FAQ so it'd be whenever our codex gets here.

[Utsujin]

Yea, that's actually why i'm switching my nilla marines over to space wolves as I really don't like the new codex, and I don't even own it yet. I'll stick with my dark angels, and space wolves thank you very much.

[Grimfoe]

Not sure I agree. I think combat squads will actually encourage me to field fewer GH's. I'll probably field only two squads and use the additional points for a Land Raider or another squad of Wolf scouts and a WGPL or even an Iron Priest.

 

Losing a squad of GH could mean the difference between an IC and an IC with kick ass retinue/Land Raider.

[MaveriK]

If we broke off our Grey Hunters into smaller combat squads/packs it would be allot easier for your opponent to slowly reduce your forces and gain the victory points over you. Even if the smaller Grey Hunters are equipt to the max, your opponent could easily shoot them down from a distance with more guns pointed at you.

 

It could be a great tactical disadvantage for anyone breaking down a full 10 man squad into 5. Grey Hunters are more fearsome when they are in their entire pack. Space Wolves work perfectly together especially if you use the pack mentality, fight like a wolf and think like a wolf. Compliment other wolf packs and vehicles to do specific tactical objectives that's what they are for.

[Wolf89]

I don't think you see the potential there mav. Drop podding in the GH packs ensures they'll get to the heart of the enemy and blast away lots of things on the way down, then you have the option to split, take objectives, hunt down smaller units (that don't require your full GH squad) and still hold or contest objectives. Objectives is 5th edition, you can be sure about that... KP's aren't anything considering it's only 1 point for a troop of GH's that can effectively kill SO much more.

 

Also the way wound allocation works... go ahead and shoot your big squads into my smaller combat squads... just a bunch of wasted shots, they really are.

 

Also thinking like a wolf means there has to be some "scouts" (like a smaller squad for example) that initially enters the fight, but the chase is carried out by other small squads flanking and destroying the "prey". With using the smaller split up squads you can achieve more, not to mention what it would do for combat with anything less than space marines in equal... I explain below.

 

You assault a squad of imperial guard, you'll win combat, no doubt about it but at the cost of now having your unit out in the open (either killing the whole squad, or catching them when they break, or they got away running). If you have a smaller 5-man squad you can only cause so many wounds, but you'll still win combat, not by too much where you can finish them off during your opponents' assault phase and then have them free to destroy another squad.

 

I've had a lot of success with smaller squads in the past and in 5th edition. They allow for more tactical thinking than just "let me take this huge squad and ram in into your lines, then see what happens", it gives you more options, the ability to support other units a lot easier without risking loosing an objective or support of even another unit.

[Grimfoe]

That's kind of how I was thinking wolf. I am currently using rhinos for my Hunters, but now I'm thinking at least one squad should be in a pod. If able to split into combat squads, I can make up my mind once the pod lands AND I can know the squad will land on turn 1. This is potentially huge. I could take 2 objectives, take one with shooty members of the squad and charge with the close combat guys, etc. If circumstances dictated, I could even keep all 10 together for a particularly tough fight.

 

Imagine 10 hunters split into two squads. Half led by an IC and half by a WGPL. You could seriously kick ass. How about 14 BC's split into two squads of 7? Very cool, potentially.

[Wolf89]

That's kind of how I was thinking wolf. I am currently using rhinos for my Hunters, but now I'm thinking at least one squad should be in a pod. If able to split into combat squads, I can make up my mind once the pod lands AND I can know the squad will land on turn 1. This is potentially huge. I could take 2 objectives, take one with shooty members of the squad and charge with the close combat guys, etc. If circumstances dictated, I could even keep all 10 together for a particularly tough fight.

 

Imagine 10 hunters split into two squads. Half led by an IC and half by a WGPL. You could seriously kick ass. How about 14 BC's split into two squads of 7? Very cool, potentially.

 

The size of a pod being 12-man is exactly why I'd be using WGBL's and pack leaders in each GH squad, the WGBL will be with the shooty (assault cannon common) and the WGPL will be with the assaulty\shooty (power fisty guy, dual lighting claws, whatever is my fancy, possibly a combi-weapon).

 

Drop pods+GH's+Combat Squads= Win

[OnlyInDeath]

Drop pods+GH's+Combat Squads= Win

 

Well, the best way to combat it, if you had to, would be to focus fire on the assaulty portion, as it would only be a 6 wound unit, then after any of those on the table have been taken care of, focus fire on the "shooty" portion in the next phase, or assault it if you have that kind of army. The problem with combat squads is they cant take too much punishment. Also, unless you spend some heavy points (ie wgbl with ac, 2x pp and a pg, 2 bolter) you cant really pump out THAT much fire (pg and 4 bolters). I dunno. In the end I prefer med-large squads, and right now I've been laughing at any list I come across that has combat squads, as I just use the method listed above and tear through squad after squad.

 

That being said, this is in regards to playing PA'd foes, which is typically normal for me. Against something with either large units of squishies (orks) or many small units of squishies (IG), I can see the power of combat squads. Against unit heavy swarms, you could take care of many diff units in a turn as opposed to wholloping only a few, as Wolf stated. Against large squads of swarms (or say genestealers which can carve up even SW's), combat squads let you cut your losses with the new "no consolidating into combat" rule.

 

So I guess in the end I would prefer the OPTION, but I most definatley wouldnt use it all the time. Only in certain situations. That's one thing that I laugh about with the newer dexes is people seem to think they MUST combat squad. Ok, sure, go ahead, I wont stop ya lol

[Wolf89]

I have to catch myself before someone else does, when I was posting the WGBL in the pod with the GH's having an assault cannon he'd likely be alone since he's 2 model count in the 12 pod.

 

I'm not saying it'd win you every game to split your army, but that's the whole point, I mean like you said against some armies being able to split is a huge difference, we don't HAVE to though and thus be overpowered as hell.

[Grey Mage]

I wouldnt split them... thank god combat squads are optional.

 

THe only time Id even want to is if there were a heavy weapon in the squad.... wich there isnt. Now 10 LFs for one hvy support choice!~ sweet.

 

BTW did anyone else notice that SM devastators now have combat squads? That means if they take a unit of ten they can plop two heavy weapon in each squad and split fire like we do..... it sucks.

 

I like my strenght in numbers. In 2nd ed we had some really strong guys, with really good equipment on each guy. In 5th ed we have a unit that is really strong, with really strong equipment. But we need that strength of numbers IMHO. I only drop in smaller squads of GH than 10 when forced to, I prefer my bloodclaw packs at 14 or 15 thank you, and I think its the best way to go.

[ForeverHero]

Actually, in my current DA list, I run three TAC squads as a base and a Dev squad as well. The TAC squads all had a Heavy Weapon (2PC, 1LC) and a PG. I have two RB and a Rhino assigned to the TAC squads and the Dev squad has 4 ML in a 10-man squad. When I deploy them, I'll split the Dev squad and place them so that they can cover each flank plus have a clean shot up the middle. The Heavy Weapons section of the TAC Squads are placed around the deployment zone to assist and support the Dev squad(s) and other troops. The three other TAC sections are deployed in the transports, most of the time, and are objective grabbers.

 

I have been running this formation for 8 months now and I have rarely lost a game. In most cases the flexibility has been great and most of my opponents have been eliminated by the fourth or fifth turn. In a couple of cases, I destroyed a large number of units during first turn, causing the player to spend most of the game defending instead of attacking or grabbing objectives.

 

So in my experience, Combat squads have been very successful and now that I am starting a SW Army I'm looking forward to them getting it as well. Just hope they can get a Heavy Weapon in a GH squad though :)

 

Cheers,

 

FH

[Wolf89]

Actually, in my current DA list, I run three TAC squads as a base and a Dev squad as well. The TAC squads all had a Heavy Weapon (2PC, 1LC) and a PG. I have two RB and a Rhino assigned to the TAC squads and the Dev squad has 4 ML in a 10-man squad. When I deploy them, I'll split the Dev squad and place them so that they can cover each flank plus have a clean shot up the middle. The Heavy Weapons section of the TAC Squads are placed around the deployment zone to assist and support the Dev squad(s) and other troops. The three other TAC sections are deployed in the transports, most of the time, and are objective grabbers.

 

I have been running this formation for 8 months now and I have rarely lost a game. In most cases the flexibility has been great and most of my opponents have been eliminated by the fourth or fifth turn. In a couple of cases, I destroyed a large number of units during first turn, causing the player to spend most of the game defending instead of attacking or grabbing objectives.

 

So in my experience, Combat squads have been very successful and now that I am starting a SW Army I'm looking forward to them getting it as well. Just hope they can get a Heavy Weapon in a GH squad though :)

 

Cheers,

 

FH

 

Those tactics will never be applied to space wolves. We'll never get combat tactics. Grey hunters will never get a heavy weapon in their squad (unless you want to count a WGBL but then that's a whole other story).

 

If you're starting Space Wolves I suggest you check out our army list section and gather ideas from there... you're not in dress country now... now you're playing with the big boys. :)

[Vash113]

I wouldn't be so sure that it won't happen. I believe the wolves were the first army to introduce combat squads back in the second edition. It's not a stretch to see them in that role. One could argue that it is very wolfy as a result.

 

Anyway, let's assume it does happen. How does that change your list? How many squads do you field? Rhinos or drop pods? etc.

 

Combat Squads is a Codex Astartes organisational tenet, the Space Wolves use the Codex as a paper weight and nothing more. Whether the SW did in 2nd Edition or not isn't good proof as the fluff was really unorganised and different back then. I sincerely doubt the Space Wolves will ever get Combat Squads. It's not wolfy in any case. Even if it did it wouldn't change anything for me anyway.

[Grimfoe]

(insert comment about agreeing with DA player here)

 

Just because we can field an army that is very hand to hand oriented, doesn't mean we have to. When we get combat squads (and I still believe we will) we will be able to field a balanced army that can "objective grab" just as Foreverhero describes.

 

I know you don't want to hear so much about 2nd edition, but everyone forgets that Space Wolves were not completely hand to hand oriented when GW wrote the first two sets of rules for them. They were also the BEST shooting army in the imperium. That means in 67% of all codices written by GW Space Wolves were very good shooters. (This is still why I have two squads of Long Fangs that rarely see the table top)

 

The way the new SM codex portrays the combat squads seem very much like a "universal" rule for space marine chapters. I don't see why they would prevent wolves from acting in that manner.

[Vash113]

Wolves can do shooty but I don't see how Combat Squads would make any difference in how we grab objectives. Our shooting prowess is merely compartmentalised which is not necessarily a bad thing. But that doesn't mean Space Wolves aren't very shooty as of now or that Combat Squads would improve objective grabbing ability. Actually it may well just hinder it. Sure more scoring squads helps but also makes each one easier to knock out. I would think a 15 or 16 man Blood Claw squad going to ground on an objective and just daring someone to counter charge them would be darn near impossible to shift.

[muzzyman1981]

Firstly, I very much doubt they would give us Combat Squads due to the fact we are the furthest from the Codex Astartes counting all the "official" Chapters and Combat Squads are a Codex Astartes "rule" if you will.

 

Secondly, even if they do give us CS it wouldn't change things for most of Russ' Wolves. We prefer our strengths in CC and part of that is the amount of Wolves we have in the packs, why would we break them up into smaller units that in all likelyhood would get crushed in CC, even with our prowess. Maybe against armies of lower amounts of units it could work but against large groups of troops (Orks/Nids) we would get murdered. I for one will keep my packs at strength, no matter what they choose to do....this is all academic though as our codex is still quite a ways out.

 

Fight well and with honor.

[Wolf89]

I would think a 15 or 16 man Blood Claw squad going to ground on an objective and just daring someone to counter charge them would be darn near impossible to shift.

 

Game 3 of a local tournie a few weeks ago in ruins... 2+ cover... nothing harder

[Grey Mage]

Combat squads with Longfangs= Win. 4 Heavy weapons, one squad. Separate. Then split fire in each squad= 4targets. 4 Lascannons equals 4 dead rhinos/raiders/chimeras, etc.

[Guest WG Vrox]

Now the whole Bolter and Pistol as standard gear, that is one option/trait I would like to have. Can you imagine giving our boys the option to assult with pistol and still get the +1 bonus for 2 CC. Flesh ripping tasty.

 

I have no problem paying 1pt for it if need be.