Combat Squads

[muzzyman1981]

THAT is the thing I would love to have, even if I have to pay 1pt per.

 

Actually WHEN we get our codex I really could see it happening too seeing as the new SM Codex gives it....

[Grimfoe]

Honestly, I think we'll get that as well as combat squads.

 

Remember GW's golden rule: "The new codex is always the BEST codex."

[Vash113]

Combat squads with Longfangs= Win. 4 Heavy weapons, one squad. Separate. Then split fire in each squad= 4targets. 4 Lascannons equals 4 dead rhinos/raiders/chimeras, etc.

 

That would require two pack leaders and after all a unit with a maximum size of 5 is hardly an option to split further into combat squads.

[Grey Mage]

Hey, if were going to dream, we should dream big.

[Grimfoe]

Hey, if were going to dream, we should dream big.

 

Lol. I don't think we'll see anything quite that broken, but I imagine that GH and Blood Claw squads of ten (or more) could see combat squads. I don't usually field claws that aren't on bikes or with jump packs, but two squads of 7, one led by a WGPL and one by an IC seems pretty appealing.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Combat squads are for Codex chapters as preached by the Ultras...why would we get it?

 

 

I think we may have the options for a lower minimum squad like Chaos.

 

Getting combat squads slides us closer to Codex which I do not like. I prefer they provide some other perk(or none at all).

 

 

Playwise for me, I DP everything and I prefer a larger number of troops per pod.

[ForeverHero]

Gentlemen,

 

I suspect that SW will indeed get the Combat Squads rule because so far each new Imperial Space Marine related codex has gotten that rule. We all know it started with DA and then BA and now the new Marines dex. It makes sense to me that we'll see the rule applied to both the SW and BT dex when they are released. Now I would like to see the SW get the same rules as CSM in that they get a Pistol/Bolter/CCW as standard. This would allow the SW to get the extra attack on CC.

 

Regards,

 

FH

[Vash113]

I suspect that SW will indeed get the Combat Squads rule because so far each new Imperial Space Marine related codex has gotten that rule. We all know it started with DA and then BA and now the new Marines dex. It makes sense to me that we'll see the rule applied to both the SW and BT dex when they are released.

 

Not true, all "CODEX" Imperial Space Marines have gotten the rule. BT and SW are not "CODEX" by any stretch of the imagination. As said Combat Squads is a very Ultramarine-esque codex doctrine. Neither the BT or the SW use the codex in any way, shape, or form so why would we get a Codex organisational doctrine? The SW and BT will probably get some new rules but I seriously doubt we'll be getting Combat Squads, its an entirely codex chapter thing.

[Dark Bjoern]

I see it similar like Lord Rags. I don´t need combat squads and i don´t want them.

For a ´nilla tac squad it´s ok to split them in combat squads. The guy with the heavy weapon stays behind while the sergeant and the one with the special weapon move ahead to take the mission object. For us SW this tactic is not useful. Why should i split the combat efficiency when i can use it in a concentrated form. The argument to take the enemy from two sides is weak, cause you need to time the assault and there is a great risk that one combat squad will be shot down befor they got into position.

[Grimfoe]

I think you still want the option if you can get it. Personally, I'm sick of watching 10 Hunters sit on an objective to be ignored by my opponent. I know I could field smaller squads, but I like the flexibility that a combat squad would give me. I can drop in 10 Hunters, a WGPL and an IC, split in two even groups and hammer the opponent on two fronts. Or I can set up one powerful group with the WGPL and IC and leave the Hunters without Powerfists or Powerswords on the objective.

[ForeverHero]

I can see your guys' point but in my opinion, giving all Imp Space Marines chapters the Combat Squads rule is a way to tie them all together. Sort of a common thread that all chapters have, regardless of the fluff. I'll be very interested to see the final dex when it is released. We all know that GW has ignored the fluff on a few occasions ;)

 

In any case, I am still working on my first SW army and my GH squads all have bolters at the moment as I am afraid things may change when it is released causing me to remodel some troops. I got time at least.

 

 

Cheers,

 

FH

[ForeverHero]

I agree Grimfoe, when I was playing DA before the new Dex, some opponents would just ignore a squad that was deployed too far away to be of any use. this could have been because the opponent did a refused flank setup or kept a lot of units in reserve. In some cases, I had a unit that was useless to the game because of a bad deployment on my part. With the Combat Squads rule, I can now spread out evenly and still cover my objectives while using a small group to harass my opponents objectives. This rule does allow for some added flexibility that can either be used but it also allows the player to keep his units together if he/she so chooses.

 

Regards,

 

FH

[muzzyman1981]

Combat Squads as I have said before is crazy for Space Wolves. If you want the "flexability" of CS please play a different Chapter. Having a pack of 10 Grey Hunters sit on a Obj and being ignored by the enemy most likely will win you the game. Having 5 GH sit on the Obj while the other half go get themselves killed or at most draw even cause they are below compliment is crazy.

 

Space Wolves operate as packs, pure and simple. Saying that regardless of the fluff to "tie the Chapters together" is tantamount to saying we should ignore who we are so that we can get what others have. I would rather keep things the way they are, namely kicking tail and taking names, than get something just to be like other Chapters. We are Space Wolves, we are feared rightly for who we are now.

 

I played my FIRST game ever this last weekend in a 3v3 match against a long time Ork player (whom was my main opponent), and long time Necron player, and a very well coached Daemon player and I take pride in maybe I lost but because of the Space Wolves I not only stayed on the board the entire game but I lost very little of my army comparatively speaking. For an army who's rules are 3 editions old, I'd say that's not too shabby. (Granted my teamates were Tau and Ravenwings)

[Grimfoe]

Combat Squads as I have said before is crazy for Space Wolves. If you want the "flexability" of CS please play a different Chapter. Having a pack of 10 Grey Hunters sit on a Obj and being ignored by the enemy most likely will win you the game. Having 5 GH sit on the Obj while the other half go get themselves killed or at most draw even cause they are below compliment is crazy.

 

 

Again, I disagree. There are times that using a smaller squad of 5 men or so makes perfect sense. Many, many times I win combats by 8-10 wounds. That's ridiculous. What a waste. I could attack with a squad of half as many marines and win by 4 or 5 wounds and still rout the enemy. Dividing my squad in two allows me to kill you twice as fast.

 

Likewise, having the flexibility of using combat squads is nothing new to Space Wolves. I was using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws in combat squads 15-20 years ago. I know that many of the pups around here aren't quite so long in the tooth, but I'd like to think that Russ wouldn't necessarily rule out any tactical option that would give him an advantage and he wouldn't send 10 wolves to kill the wimpy eldar when five could do it just as easily.

[Vash113]

I think you still want the option if you can get it. Personally, I'm sick of watching 10 Hunters sit on an objective to be ignored by my opponent. I know I could field smaller squads, but I like the flexibility that a combat squad would give me. I can drop in 10 Hunters, a WGPL and an IC, split in two even groups and hammer the opponent on two fronts. Or I can set up one powerful group with the WGPL and IC and leave the Hunters without Powerfists or Powerswords on the objective.

 

No you can't even with Combat Squads. Unless I'm completely missing something when you split the squad its done before deployment and they become two entirely seperate squads for all intents and purposes meaning no sharing transports and no splitting after the game has begun meaning when you "drop in" so to speak the squad can't split then and if you do split it your opponent can just hammer the unit with all your special weapons and power weapons and pick apart the second half of the squad later thats now toothless. Combat Squads IMO really isn't all that usefull and in fact has more downsides than it does upsides.

 

I agree Grimfoe, when I was playing DA before the new Dex, some opponents would just ignore a squad that was deployed too far away to be of any use. this could have been because the opponent did a refused flank setup or kept a lot of units in reserve. In some cases, I had a unit that was useless to the game because of a bad deployment on my part. With the Combat Squads rule, I can now spread out evenly and still cover my objectives while using a small group to harass my opponents objectives. This rule does allow for some added flexibility that can either be used but it also allows the player to keep his units together if he/she so chooses.

 

How would combat squads do anything what so ever to fix refused flank tactical errors? The two halves of the unit deploy at the exact same time and the part that would want to be mobile still has to slog it to the fight and the one that sits back will still get ignored. Plus especially with Space Wolves its not like we don't have the flexibility to break and reform anyway. Take Blood Claws for instance they already break down into wonderful blocks, I can deploy two fifteen man squads or easily take 5 with a power weapon/fist from each unit and form a 3rd 10 man squad without needing to change anything.

 

Honestly I don't see the use of Combat Squads at all. All your doing is weakening and dividing your own forces making each part easier to pick off and while it can be usefull to have more scoring units your also weakening each one greatly and just giving your opponent more kill points and an easier time to blow apart your mobile units. I mean with Codex Marines its not so bad as the heavy weapon stays back to cover the special weapon and sergeant advancing but with Space Wolves... its at best unnecessary and at worst would be detrimental. After all we don't have mixed heavy and special weaponry that we'd want to divide in the first place and in close combat numbers make a huge difference, thinning down our units into smaller squads just nerfs their combat staying power for IMO a not substantial enough increase in tactical flexibility to warrant the decrease in combat effectiveness.

 

Plus with Counter-Attack our squads LIKE to sit around and wait for the enemy to try and shift them, larger squads are a bonus here not a detriment. Why waste that advantage by breaking large usefull squads into smaller less powerfull units?

[Grimfoe]

No you can't even with Combat Squads. Unless I'm completely missing something when you split the squad its done before deployment and they become two entirely seperate squads for all intents and purposes meaning no sharing transports and no splitting after the game has begun meaning when you "drop in" so to speak the squad can't split then and if you do split it your opponent can just hammer the unit with all your special weapons and power weapons and pick apart the second half of the squad later thats now toothless. Combat Squads IMO really isn't all that usefull and in fact has more downsides than it does upsides.

 

 

You can split after the drop pod comes in. I think this may be the most significant tactical advantage.

[Vash113]

You can split after the drop pod comes in. I think this may be the most significant tactical advantage.

 

So the C:SM Combat Squads rule is different from the BA/DA one. Even so I don't see a tactical advantage in doing so, as I said Space Wolves like waiting for a counter-attack now and larger squads are a boon in cc, splitting just weakens your units. The tactical advantage isn't worth the necessary weakening of each individual combat squad. It would just be shooting oneself in the foot needlessly at least where Space Wolves are concerned and Black Templars are the same way.

 

It's just not a usefull rule for either the BT or SW to have, its more of a detriment really and a more usefull and fluffy rule would be IMO far more preferable than getting saddled with a codex tenet. Space Wolves stand apart from the Codex and that's the way I like it.

[muzzyman1981]

That may be BUT it still doesn't change the fact you are weakening a very strong unit into smaller more vulnerable units. A turd by any other name is still a turd....in this case an unneeded rule when we could get something more our style and less likely to either be useless or worse, detrimental to our fighting ability.

[ForeverHero]

Well, I'll agree to disagree as I am just learning to play SW but from my experience with DA the addition of the combat squads rule was a good one. Either way, I look forward to when the new dex is released and I'm hoping that it is soon.

 

Best Regards,

 

FH

[muzzyman1981]

That's the thing....DAs and BAs and CODEX Chapters are very different from us and probibly will benefit from CS but Space Wolves wont as our strengths lie in getting up close and personal with as many Wolves as possible and beating the enemy into submission....not very easy with a squad with only half its compliment of special weapons and men....

[Grimfoe]

That's the thing....DAs and BAs and CODEX Chapters are very different from us and probibly will benefit from CS but Space Wolves wont as our strengths lie in getting up close and personal with as many Wolves as possible and beating the enemy into submission....not very easy with a squad with only half its compliment of special weapons and men....

 

 

I dunno, MY wolves can get it done with fewer men. :o Either way, I think the nice thing about it is that you won't have to divide into combat squads if you don't want to and I'll be free to do so if I want to.

 

Again, I think the time that I'll do it will likely be when I drop in. That's when it may or may not make sense. Wolves, adapting to the situation on the ground, will quickly determine the best allocation of resources and decide whether to remain at full strength or divide once the pod lands.

[Vash113]

Well, I'll agree to disagree as I am just learning to play SW but from my experience with DA the addition of the combat squads rule was a good one. Either way, I look forward to when the new dex is released and I'm hoping that it is soon.

 

That's the problem. It's a useful rule with DA of course, but Space Wolves are NOT DARK ANGELS! Or codex marines for that matter, we don't have a mixture of heavy and special weapons. Every model in a unit is doing the same thing, either shooting or assault and armed to do that quite efficiently. While splitting a Codex Tactical Squad to make best use of the sergeant's weaponry and the special and heavy weapons is a good idea. Splitting say a Grey Hunter or Blood Claw squad would do absolutely nothing but weaken the squad's close combat prowess. In effect your nerfing your own units for a tactical flexibility you don't need. Each squad is already organised and armed to do what it needs to without waste. Numbers are an advantage, the numbers to last in close combat, the numbers to hold an objective almost indefinitely, the numbers to sweep away an enemy in combat. When you split your units you'd just hamstring your own units. A 5 man Blood Claw squad would be laughable as a close combat unit and won't last long, a 10 man unit has a decent ammount of staying power and a 15 man Blood Claw squad is hard as nails.

 

If your thinking from a Dark Angel or Codex Marine perspective where Combat Squads are concerned you really need to break that habit. Space Wolves are a force apart, yes they are Space Marines but their organisation, tactics and abilities are vastly different from a Codex Chapter and lets face it Dark Angels and Blood Angels are Codex Chapters little different from your standard Space Marines.

 

In short for Codex Chapters Combat Squads has its uses, but for Space Wolves it would be more of a weakness than an advantage. Just remember Space Wolves are not Dark Angels, not by a long shot.

 

@ Grimfoe

-While it may be optional I'd see it as a heresy against the Wolves. WE are NOT a codex chapter and I'd hate to see the Wolves codex tainted by the codex in any way, it can stay out of our buissiness. We'd be better off with keeping the rules we have than getting stuck with codex rules that may or may not be usefull and losing our unique rules that are always usefull. Should we get stuck with Combat Squads I don't doubt we'd lose something else more important. Be carefull what you wish for. It will be sad day should the Space Wolves and the Black Templars get turned into codex chapters and don't mistake Combat Squads is a codex chapter rule.

[Long Fang]

For my own part combat squads is a codex tactic, leave it to the ultra smurfs. Wolf's hunt in packs.

My 2 cents

 

/me goes ale hunting

[MaveriK]

sheesh, I felt kinda alone out there for a sec with my earlier post about this LOL :unsure:

 

I dunno, MY wolves can get it done with fewer men. :D Either way, I think the nice thing about it is that you won't have to divide into combat squads if you don't want to and I'll be free to do so if I want to.

 

Again, I think the time that I'll do it will likely be when I drop in. That's when it may or may not make sense. Wolves, adapting to the situation on the ground, will quickly determine the best allocation of resources and decide whether to remain at full strength or divide once the pod lands.

 

out of curiosity Grimfoe; what did your army list look like when you got it done with fewer men? and against what army? how many games have it benefited you in a result of a win 5th Edition? were they larger points games? I myself rarely play smaller games anymore sadly, although they can be fun! I prefer playing larger sized games.

[Grimfoe]

out of curiosity Grimfoe; what did your army list look like when you got it done with fewer men? and against what army? how many games have it benefited you in a result of a win 5th Edition? were they larger points games? I myself rarely play smaller games anymore sadly, although they can be fun! I prefer playing larger sized games.

 

I was thinking of my games against IG, specifically. Usually play about 1500 points and I run an army with 2x10 GH's with Rhinos, 8 BC's with JP, 1 Dread with pod, 1 Long Fang pack, Wolf Scouts, Ragnar and a few odds and ends. I have won many combats by 8, 10 or even more than 10 wounds against Guard and I have often thought it a shame that I was forced to "waste" so many of these wounds. Dividing my pack into combat squads would, in that instance, allow me to kill two squads a turn instead of one. It also may help prevent me from killing too quickly as I may be able to stay in combat in the turn I assault and in my opponents next turn. This would help to prevent me from taking too much fire. I have also seen squads decimated by enemy fire (usually the damn battle cannon) that were severely reduced but still very effective in close combat with only 2 or so squad members.

 

This is a bit of a double edge sword, however, as you could reduce your squad because you only need a few members, but then that same hit from a battle cannon (etc) that I was describing before would, essentially, wipe you out. Although, I suppose this would be offset somewhat by the fact that you would have twice as many targets and would be able to hold up to shooting better......

 

I dunno, it's a lot to consider. I do think we'll have combat squads, however, and we'll have to determine when, if ever, we decide to use them. In a few instances, I think it will make sense but I think we'll find that we prefer to keep our number, by and large. After all, how many players do you know that field their GH squads with six men now? I know that I typically try to field at least 9 and a pack leader/IC, etc.