Combat Squads

[jedipenguin]

Methinks all the people screaming 'SW will never get combat squads, its not wolfy' need to look out their second edition Codex, becuase we had it back then, whats to stop GW giving it back?

[Wolf89]

Methinks all the people screaming 'SW will never get combat squads, its not wolfy' need to look out their second edition Codex, becuase we had it back then, whats to stop GW giving it back?

 

2nd edition was a completly different game than 5th and as such lots of rules and fluff were different than they are now...

 

"Stand still while I use my Carnifex on you..." said the giddy apothecary

[Long Fang]

We've had the current codex 8 years now I believe? I like the way it works and although it has its issues it is still a strong list. The thought of sweeping changes makes the wolf in me angry..... and you don't want to see him angry.

[Roland Durendal]

I think what it all boils down to is that SW don't have Heavy Weapons in there squads like regular Marines do. Thus the impetus for splitting up a 10 man squad into a "Assault" and "Support" element is nullified.

 

Tactically speaking, it makes logical sense to split up a squad that has a HW in it, to use it as a fire support base while the more assault oriented troops manuever forward. I agree there and agree it works well for armies that can take such an option.

 

But here's the issue: SW cannot take HW in their line squads, and to do so would go against their fluff and play style. The ability to split fire precipitated the need for CS in regular marines. Why give us an ability which we cannot fully take advantage of? Unless you'd like to see SW get HW in their line squads too...

 

Breaking up a 10 man GH pack that has 2PW and a MG, for example, would actually decrease its overall effectiveness. No matter how you cut it (i.e. 2 PW in one group and 1MG in the other, or 1 PW in one group, 1PW/MG in the other) they become extremely weaker versions of what they were intended to do. Same goes if you had 2PP too. You'd have 2 mediocre at best squads. It's better to have one unified strong squad than it is to have 2 mediocre squads. And let us not forget how easy it is to kill off 5 men vs. 10.

 

With 10 men, you have (using the 2PW/MG squad) 7 aggregate wounds with which to disperse incoming fire. That means those special weapons will last longer. You break that up (no matter how you do it, one sqd will have 2 specials, 1 will only have 1), the MOST they have is 4 surrounding wounds. That means the chances of you having to take a save on one of your special weapons in drastically increased. Personally I like having bodies to protect my guys.

[Grey Mage]

Now what I wouldnt mind seeing is if theyd let Grey Hunters take two special weapons....

[Grimfoe]

One thing to consider would be the benefit of using one combat squad to screen the other from enemy fire. Against some enemies I can see the benefit of limiting the number of causalties by splitting your squad into two.

 

Example: 10 man squad splits in to two five man squads, now the maximum number of casualties that can be inflicted by any one squad is five. I'm sure it could backfire in some instances, but it may be an effective tactic in the right circumstance.

[muzzyman1981]

Grimfoe.....it still doesn't give that much of a pro when compared to the con....plus if they had someone in front closer who's to say they don't fire at the closer squad negating your ploy....it still doesn't make a turd smell like chocolate....

[Grimfoe]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. I've been thinking about it quite a bit and there may be no real downside to fighting in combat squads. There's an arguement to be made that we should divide EVERY time we deploy.

 

Think about it. Just because you fight in two combat squads instead of one unit, does mean you HAVE to fight separately. The squads can assault together if their combined might is required or assault separately if the situation allows. If they fight together, they're actually more effective as combat squads. Assault will be resolved exactly the same way with the multiple units, and if you win the result is the same. If you lose, you get two morale tests, so you're less likely to blow a roll for the entire unit and the enemy will not be able to use sweeping advance unless BOTH squads fail.

 

 

A pretty convincing argument, huh?

[muzzyman1981]

True but you are more likely to lose the combat due to each having smaller numbers in each unit. I would rather the higher chance to WIN the combat than the better chance not to LOSE so badly.

[Grimfoe]

True but you are more likely to lose the combat due to each having smaller numbers in each unit. I would rather the higher chance to WIN the combat than the better chance not to LOSE so badly.

 

 

Not so. The rules allow the combat to be resolved considering all wounds inflicted by each side. The number of squads is immaterial.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Methinks all the people screaming 'SW will never get combat squads, its not wolfy' need to look out their second edition Codex, becuase we had it back then, whats to stop GW giving it back?

 

 

If you read the current Codex GW goes to great lengths to explain that SW's are the poster boys of non-codex and would rather use the Codex as toilett paper v/s adopt its policies. (and remember Combat squads are Codex). I have a feeling GW is going to move that stubborn bar even further for us in the next dex.

[Grimfoe]

The same can be said of shooting. Both squad could shoot at two different targets or choose to shoot at one, keeping all the fire power they would have if they had not split. They can't both be shot by one unit, however, so the number of marines that can be killed by your opponent is capped at 5. Also, only one squad needs to worry about pinning, etc. so they are more resilient if split.

 

The only real downside I see is that I can't deploy all 10 Hunters in my Rhino if they're split. They can come down in the same pod, but I don't believe I could deploy them in one rhino as the rules appear pretty clear that only one unit may be in a transport at one time.

[jedipenguin]

Methinks all the people screaming 'SW will never get combat squads, its not wolfy' need to look out their second edition Codex, becuase we had it back then, whats to stop GW giving it back?

 

 

If you read the current Codex GW goes to great lengths to explain that SW's are the poster boys of non-codex and would rather use the Codex as toilett paper v/s adopt its policies. (and remember Combat squads are Codex). I have a feeling GW is going to move that stubborn bar even further for us in the next dex.

 

The current Codex has nothing to do with my statement. I'm just trying to point out that the idea is not without a precedent and at the end of the day we are all subject to GW's whims.

 

Remember that it was not so long ago that even the Codex Chapters did'nt get Combat squads as an option (they could represent them by using tiny squads, but it was nowehere to be found in the rules)

 

What counts as 'wolfy/un-wolfy' depends on what mood GW is feeling in, if GW decide tomorrow that GH's get heavy weapons and combat squads and that all Bloodclaws can now have Jump Packs and Bolters if desired people can wring their hands and lament the fact that its 'unwolfy' all they like, but if thats what GW says, thats whats wolfy, and the coming generations who dont remeber the old times of the 3rd Edition dex will mock you for your antiquated idea's of what constitutes a fluffy SW army.

 

NB - Just as a footnote, to keep me ontopic, I dont see GW giving SW combat squads in the next Dex, much as I would like to see it, but given the HUGE amount of love that has been given to the Vanilla's, I am more than a little excited to see what treats lie in store for us (its probably too much to hope for a return to all wolves having +1 WS on all other marines though right ^_^)

[Grimfoe]

NB - Just as a footnote, to keep me ontopic, I dont see GW giving SW combat squads in the next Dex, much as I would like to see it, but given the HUGE amount of love that has been given to the Vanilla's, I am more than a little excited to see what treats lie in store for us (its probably too much to hope for a return to all wolves having +1 WS on all other marines though right :P)

 

Also probably too much to hope for Long Fangs to get their BS 5 back ....... :)

 

 

Anyway, I hope we see combat squads. If we do, don't be so quick to dismiss them. As I pointed out above, I see many reasons to use them in the right situation. Any way you slice it, it's never good to limit your options, so the more rules of this type we get, the better.

[muzzyman1981]

Why should we HAVE to get Combat Squads? Why cannot the Wolves get another rule that is more in line with the fact we don't follow the Codex Astartes? Fluff is probibly the biggest reason many of us play Wolves, I know it's the main reason I do. Otherwise we are just playing an army who's models are harder to paint cause our basic troopes aren't assembly lined and are more individualistic, more specialized (comparatively speaking), and we get a special tank.

 

GW should give us a rule to help us but not get away from the fact we are a non-Codex Chapter which is a big part of the draw to Space Wolves.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Methinks all the people screaming 'SW will never get combat squads, its not wolfy' need to look out their second edition Codex, becuase we had it back then, whats to stop GW giving it back?

 

 

If you read the current Codex GW goes to great lengths to explain that SW's are the poster boys of non-codex and would rather use the Codex as toilett paper v/s adopt its policies. (and remember Combat squads are Codex). I have a feeling GW is going to move that stubborn bar even further for us in the next dex.

 

The current Codex has nothing to do with my statement. I'm just trying to point out that the idea is not without a precedent and at the end of the day we are all subject to GW's whims.

 

Remember that it was not so long ago that even the Codex Chapters did'nt get Combat squads as an option (they could represent them by using tiny squads, but it was nowehere to be found in the rules)

 

What counts as 'wolfy/un-wolfy' depends on what mood GW is feeling in, if GW decide tomorrow that GH's get heavy weapons and combat squads and that all Bloodclaws can now have Jump Packs and Bolters if desired people can wring their hands and lament the fact that its 'unwolfy' all they like, but if thats what GW says, thats whats wolfy, and the coming generations who dont remeber the old times of the 3rd Edition dex will mock you for your antiquated idea's of what constitutes a fluffy SW army.

 

NB - Just as a footnote, to keep me ontopic, I dont see GW giving SW combat squads in the next Dex, much as I would like to see it, but given the HUGE amount of love that has been given to the Vanilla's, I am more than a little excited to see what treats lie in store for us (its probably too much to hope for a return to all wolves having +1 WS on all other marines though right :P)

 

I mention the current SM Codex(not SW) because it shows recent sentiment v/s age old past ideas which may not fit (combat squads for wolves in 2nd). I understand GW does what it wants, but look towards trends....and the trends would dictacte no codex/combat squads. Again I rather give us something more wolfy v/s having us look like codex boys asisde from armor, vehicles and weapons.

[jedipenguin]

I mention the current SM Codex(not SW) because it shows recent sentiment v/s age old past ideas which may not fit (combat squads for wolves in 2nd). I understand GW does what it wants, but look towards trends....and the trends would dictacte no codex/combat squads. Again I rather give us something more wolfy v/s having us look like codex boys asisde from armor, vehicles and weapons.

 

A fair point and well made, but I'm struggling to conceive of what they could have in store that offers similar advantage while at the same time being 'unique'

 

I guess I'll just have to twiddle my thumbs and wait and see

[Long Fang]

They can come down in the same pod, but I don't believe I could deploy them in one rhino as the rules appear pretty clear that only one unit may be in a transport at one time.

 

 

I have just re-read the rule and it says you 'decide to combat squad when you deploy'. You could put a squad in a rhino in reserve, then decide whether to split or not as the situation dictates when the unit comes on i.e "deploys", but this is fairly limited as the 2nd combat squad would have to foot slog as soon as units deploy. But might give you some flexibility i guess.

 

I still stand by combat squads being bad, main game reason being its harder to hide the special weapons.

 

Fang

[Grimfoe]

They can come down in the same pod, but I don't believe I could deploy them in one rhino as the rules appear pretty clear that only one unit may be in a transport at one time.

 

 

I have just re-read the rule and it says you 'decide to combat squad when you deploy'. You could put a squad in a rhino in reserve, then decide whether to split or not as the situation dictates when the unit comes on i.e "deploys", but this is fairly limited as the 2nd combat squad would have to foot slog as soon as units deploy. But might give you some flexibility i guess.

 

I still stand by combat squads being bad, main game reason being its harder to hide the special weapons.

 

Fang

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree, as it would be harder to hide special weapons.

 

With regard to the rhino, I reread the passage in the rule book yesterday, and it seems pretty clear that only one unit may be embarked at one time. Unless GW addresses that issue specifically I don't think I can rationalize two combat squads in the same vehicle. I say this because the combat squad description states that you make your decision at deployment and the two squads are treated as separate units from that point on. The exception for drop pods is clearly stated, but none for other transport vehicles.