Stern or Grand Master

[tksolway]

They are virtually the same price, which is better do you want the extra wound, or go for the extra stuff?

 

Would you use a GM in a 1500 point army or stick with a Brother Captain?

[Auedawen]

Grand Master is much, MUCH better than Stern. His ability is as much a nuisance as it is a blessing, and he's loaded with abilities and equipment you don't nee. A Grandmaster on the other hand is better in Combat, and has the ability to be customized. The only reason to ever consider Stern is if you want two of the DH-only Force Weapons in your army (general consensus is that Codex overrules Rulebook, thus our Force Weapons can insta-kill those with Eternal Warrior).

[Marid]

He's not exactly "loaded with abilities and equipment you don't need." He's not a whole lot different than a GM. You trade one wound for Hammerhand, Holocaust, Grimoire of True Names, and a re-roll ability. If you wanted a GM with Holocaust anyway he's worth consideration. I don't think he should be so brazenly dismissed.

[number6]

He's not exactly "loaded with abilities and equipment you don't need." He's not a whole lot different than a GM. You trade one wound for Hammerhand, Holocaust, Grimoire of True Names, and a re-roll ability. If you wanted a GM with Holocaust anyway he's worth consideration. I don't think he should be so brazenly dismissed.

Heh. I brazenly dismiss Stern all the time. :lol: He's useless compared to a GM. I'd rather have the naked GM than all the little extras that Stern gets you. He's just not tough enough to stand and deliver when you need it. 'Cause when you really need him to pull through, you use the reroll. Maybe it will help you, maybe it won't, but every time you do you let your opponent do the same thing back to you. No way is that worth the cost.

[benmothershaw]

He's not exactly "loaded with abilities and equipment you don't need." He's not a whole lot different than a GM. You trade one wound for Hammerhand, Holocaust, Grimoire of True Names, and a re-roll ability. If you wanted a GM with Holocaust anyway he's worth consideration. I don't think he should be so brazenly dismissed.

Heh. I brazenly dismiss Stern all the time. <_< He's useless compared to a GM. I'd rather have the naked GM than all the little extras that Stern gets you. He's just not tough enough to stand and deliver when you need it. 'Cause when you really need him to pull through, you use the reroll. Maybe it will help you, maybe it won't, but every time you do you let your opponent do the same thing back to you. No way is that worth the cost.

I think a iniative 5 strength 8 attack is quite welcome to me against dreadnoughts.

Holocaust is also great, your bound to lose some terminators around you... which is why this pyschic power compensates.

Grimore - Worth nothing unless you plays daemons regularly.

I think the ability to have both Holocaust and Hammerhand together is great. Although he does get one less attack than a Gm and can't add anything in the armoury like the storm shield. I think the re-roll is useless unless you go second and it's the last turn... imo which can never be assured under the new 5th edition game length.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think a iniative 5 strength 8 attack is quite welcome to me against dreadnoughts.

 

He actually gets 4 attacks (5 on the charge). It's not a bad option if you are facing down a walker in combat. Otherwise, you are better off using the NFW (because it ignores armour saves and you can fry multi-wound targets with it).

 

Holocaust is also great, your bound to lose some terminators around you... which is why this pyschic power compensates.

 

I wouldn't use it. He's already a bit of a fragile character (only 2 wounds), risking removal of a wound for an I1 S5 blast is a bit stupid. Just take an incinerator on his bodyguard. It never backfires, can't be blocked (except by a 2+ or 3+ armour save), doesn't require you to be in close-combat and has longer reach.

 

I think the ability to have both Holocaust and Hammerhand together is great. Although he does get one less attack than a Gm and can't add anything in the armoury like the storm shield. I think the re-roll is useless unless you go second and it's the last turn... imo which can never be assured under the new 5th edition game length.

 

Hammerhand is the only useful power, and it's quite situational ie anti-armour (and being a psychic power, risky). -1A isn't a big deal, you only need to cause one unsaved wound to fry that enemy character anyway. DH storm shield is crap, a one-use-per-combat-round, only-in-close-combat 4+ invul save that denies you the 'two-cc weapon' bonus is a bad investment, I don't take it on my GM anyway. His 5+ invul is fine, don't forget he has a retinue to hide in, so he has better survivability than most other Marine characters. His re-roll isn't for first turn, it is for ANYTHING, once per phase (so, once per Movement, once per Shooting, once per Assault).

 

Overall, I prefer the GM. 3 wounds makes him a bit beefier in combat, as does the +1A, he can take a power weapon (to get another Attack), or load up with a psycannon (always good with his BS5), he also can get Sacred Incense (very useful if you wanna assault with him, and works against Chaos). He can also get bionics, which are cheap enough to justify their use, and when they do work it's hilarious to watch. Grimoire isn't really worth it (hitting on 3's instead of 4's isn't a giant difference), if you are that worried about Daemons just take 'Destroy Daemon', a Daemonhammer and enjoy the lulz when you bitch-slap Daemons before they can swing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Stern's Reroll can be a pure benfit if used in an Assault Phase. If you only use them for making Saves in Assault when you go after your opponent, you can get a free reroll your opponent can take no use of, as it's the end of the Player turn, and they can't carry them over.

 

Not great, but it's something. :)

[benmothershaw]

I think a iniative 5 strength 8 attack is quite welcome to me against dreadnoughts.

 

He actually gets 4 attacks (5 on the charge). It's not a bad option if you are facing down a walker in combat. Otherwise, you are better off using the NFW (because it ignores armour saves and you can fry multi-wound targets with it).

 

Holocaust is also great, your bound to lose some terminators around you... which is why this pyschic power compensates.

 

I wouldn't use it. He's already a bit of a fragile character (only 2 wounds), risking removal of a wound for an I1 S5 blast is a bit stupid. Just take an incinerator on his bodyguard. It never backfires, can't be blocked (except by a 2+ or 3+ armour save), doesn't require you to be in close-combat and has longer reach.

 

I think the ability to have both Holocaust and Hammerhand together is great. Although he does get one less attack than a Gm and can't add anything in the armoury like the storm shield. I think the re-roll is useless unless you go second and it's the last turn... imo which can never be assured under the new 5th edition game length.

 

Hammerhand is the only useful power, and it's quite situational ie anti-armour (and being a psychic power, risky). -1A isn't a big deal, you only need to cause one unsaved wound to fry that enemy character anyway. DH storm shield is crap, a one-use-per-combat-round, only-in-close-combat 4+ invul save that denies you the 'two-cc weapon' bonus is a bad investment, I don't take it on my GM anyway. His 5+ invul is fine, don't forget he has a retinue to hide in, so he has better survivability than most other Marine characters. His re-roll isn't for first turn, it is for ANYTHING, once per phase (so, once per Movement, once per Shooting, once per Assault).

 

Overall, I prefer the GM. 3 wounds makes him a bit beefier in combat, as does the +1A, he can take a power weapon (to get another Attack), or load up with a psycannon (always good with his BS5), he also can get Sacred Incense (very useful if you wanna assault with him, and works against Chaos). He can also get bionics, which are cheap enough to justify their use, and when they do work it's hilarious to watch. Grimoire isn't really worth it (hitting on 3's instead of 4's isn't a giant difference), if you are that worried about Daemons just take 'Destroy Daemon', a Daemonhammer and enjoy the lulz when you bitch-slap Daemons before they can swing.

I don't agree with the pyscannon idea, he's not shooty and when he pops out the LRC who cares about shooting? I mean I don't want to lose my assault range, I'm probably going to kill them anyway because I use a incinerator handy for those iniative 5 baddies. Bionics is ok, I hope my Gm survives long enough to complete his role before he has to use this though.

Sacred Incense and destroy Daemon are enough... seen as our force weapons' causes psuedo death.

Ok maybe storm shield is bad, but i was considering under the Sm codex rules. True Incinerators are probably better, but you'll see more use of Holocaust in a close combat squad.

[Leethal]

Stern's still in the Codex? :)

 

Seriously though, Grandmaster is so much better. And I heard rumors at GW that the Grandmaster is indeed made of 29% of Win. How you get the other 71% is up to you.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I also prefer the Grand Master. Of course, I used a Stern model, gave him a psycannon on his left arm, then used Inquisitor Coteaz's daemonhammer instead of the sword. It looks mighty sweet if I say so myself!

 

Am I the only one that equips the Grand Master with a Daemonhammer and watches the fun happen? o.O It helps that the same model doubles as an embedded BC with a free thunder hammer/stormshield swap then swap out the stormshield for a psycannon ^.^

[Auedawen]

Well, since I don't believe adding the Daemonhammer to the GM model removes the Force Weapon anymore, I'd certainly be inclined to do so in Apocalypse...but not in any smaller game =P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't agree with the pyscannon idea, he's not shooty and when he pops out the LRC who cares about shooting? I mean I don't want to lose my assault range, I'm probably going to kill them anyway because I use a incinerator handy for those iniative 5 baddies. Bionics is ok, I hope my Gm survives long enough to complete his role before he has to use this though.

 

Why not? BS5 psycannon = death to most infantry, Lords of Change and Fateweaver in particular will be scared sleepless (hits on 2+, wounds on 4+, no save for you!), and it doesn't really impair his combat effectiveness (still 5 attacks on the charge). You can take the incinerator on the retinue anyway. Bionics are what I take when I'm not facing Chaos (instead of Sacred Incense). It's 10 points that can potentially bring your 200-point Grandmaster back from the dead, and the look on your opponents face when you roll that 6 is priceless. That said, it often doesn't work, so it's not mandatory.

Sacred Incense and destroy Daemon are enough... seen as our force weapons' causes psuedo death.

 

Yeah, but you can't use 'Destroy Daemon' and your force weapon ability in the same round of combat. So, hence you should shell out for that daemonhammer.

Ok maybe storm shield is bad, but i was considering under the Sm codex rules. True Incinerators are probably better, but you'll see more use of Holocaust in a close combat squad.

 

There's no 'maybe' about it, the only time you should take it is when it's free (ie 1-2 GKT's in your retinue should swap out). We don't use the SM codex version, GW has made that quite clear (ie by stating firmly that we are stuck with the old AC rules). Like I said, using Holocaust is sub-par compared to using an incinerator. If the squad isn't winning combat by the time I1 rolls around, you're screwed anyway. It's only good against hordes (even then incinerator is still better), and frankly you should have more sense not to get dragged into combat with 30-wound powerfists (ie Ork Boyz) or pointless Gaunt broods.

 

Seriously though, Grandmaster is so much better. And I heard rumors at GW that the Grandmaster is indeed made of 29% of Win. How you get the other 71% is up to you.

 

Well, a daemonhammer is made of 50% win, 'Destroy Daemon' another 15%, 'Sacred Incense' another 5%. Bionics for the last 1% of win. Like I said, get a Bloodthirster to charge him after you have turned on 'Destroy Daemon' and start swinging that daemonhammer. 'Oh, you go at I1, I go at at I5. Suck it!'. Then, let the carnage commence. Assuming your Grandmaser is feeling tired/generous (fifth Greater Daemon he's banished single-handedly this week, retinue getting sulky), he'll leave 1-2 wounds on it for the GKT bodyguard to rip off. If you get run over by that giant trans-sexual beast (Keeper of Secrets has frags, so she gets her 7 x S6 I10 attacks in), roll a 6 and proclaim 'Hey, I didn't hear no bell! Round 2, sweet cheeks!'. Then shoot her to death with psycannons.

 

Am I the only one that equips the Grand Master with a Daemonhammer and watches the fun happen? o.O

 

I only do it against Daemons and Chaos Marines. It doesn't work against anyone else (although if you are fighting Eldard+Avatar hilarity ensues. Avatar gets beat by anti-Daemon abilities but really has none of their advantages). When it does work though, you feel dirty. I mean, close-combats are supposed to be some kind of contest, not a insane one-sided rampage ^_^ . Ah well, it's good to be king :tu: even if only against one army+about 4 other units.

[- 7eAL -]

Reclusiarch Darius, you have some interesting math there.

[skarn]

One consideration for using Stern is fluff: it's a bit of a stretch for a GM to show up in anything other than the biggest game. When 100 GK terminators took on Angron, they were led by a Brother-Captain. Stern is the closest we have to an inbetween character for people who dont want a GM but want the force weapon or I5.

[Auedawen]

Skarn, you do post a good point. Why would one ever see a Grand master of the most powerful group of Astartes in a mere skirmish? Well the answer is actually quite simple, this is merely the most important skirmish in a much larger campaign/battle. So instead of this one match determining the outcome of the entire war, it's but a snapshot of a MUCH larger battle.

 

Least that's how i justify it =P

[Inquisitor Fox]

I use the points and statline of a GM sometimes and call it an exceptionally gifted Brother-Captain... ;)

 

I've found the thunder hammer/daemon hammer on the BC works very well... you don't lose anything by pairing it with a psycannon (since true grit doesn't work on termies any more, nor can you get additional attacks with a thunderhammer) and it gives some strength 8 shots in addition to the strength 6s, which helps instant kill marine characters and threaten vehicles and higher toughness monstrous creatures. It's been a combo I've been very happy with.

 

Stern, while gifted, doesn't allow the same customization and different options as your own character does. Personally, I'm of the opinion all HQ BC's should be 2 wounds, but that's just me :)