Deathwatch

[tksolway]

Can you use Deathwatch Kill teams in a GK list?

[Leethal]

the main question here is why?

 

They are from different Ordos...sure why might work together but, they specialize in TOTALLY different areas.

 

Grey Knights are daemon-bane, Deathwatch is xenos-bane. Are you fighting daemonic aliens now?

 

If you're talking about the Deathwatch "codex" on the GW website, I would never, ever, ever, ever recommend it. Too many overpriced units and with not enough "pow".

 

In short, yes you can buy, holy crap that's sooooooo not a good way to win a game. Use Sternguard allies or something, much more cost effective than the Deathwatch Marines, and cheaper too.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

It is a neat but expensive way to get some anti-tank firepower in you list. I used to use one in my otherwise all-GK list as a 2nd HQ, load them up with meltaguns and as many special weapons as you can afford, put them in a Rhino that seems blessed by the Emperor himself (Even a Stormsword couldn't kill it) and just watch them make up their points cost. However, if they get killed quickly thats a serious points sink you just lost. I see them as a nice way to fill that 2nd HQ slot that pure GKs otherwise can't get. It is a bit of a bummer when you realise you actually have to MAKE a morale check :tu:

[number6]

Can you use Deathwatch Kill teams in a GK list?

Yes. :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

Would the article be invalidated now the new Marine Codex is out? If not, can we still take Emperors Champions from their old Article?

 

How do he options work for the Kill Teams, as thier isn't a Codicier to upgrade the Captain too (And what Psychic Powers does he use)? And what weapons/wargear can the Captain/Codicier use?

 

Have they lost Combat Tactics, and can the Captain take a Command Squad?

[Leethal]

No it is not invalidated, just not a smart point-wise idea. And ONLY the Black Templar may have Emperor's Champions. You may take the model and convert into a Company Champion or some guy with a wicked Power sword.

 

Read the Librarian entry. USE SPACE MARINE CODEX. Reading is fun! ;) As for weapons and wargear, what he has on him. So "Force Weapon, Pyshic Hood, and possibly a bolt pistol".

 

Combat Tactics....Mmm, that's iffy. The Deathwatch Captain might not be able to take a Command Squad, because...

1. Why the bloody hell does a Deathwatch Captain have a Command Squad from a random Chapter? Plus, he doesn't have that option in the PDF.

2. Combat Tactics.....iffy. Probably not.

 

Will you may want to, it's not a great idea. Now, if you took some Sternguard and made them "count as" Deathwatch, gave them whatever ammo options they had, painted them as Deathwatch, then yes that would be better. They are 1 Point Cheaper, they have 1 more attack, have higher Leadership, and the models are more badass.

[Gentlemanloser]

No it is not invalidated, just not a smart point-wise idea. And ONLY the Black Templar may have Emperor's Champions. You may take the model and convert into a Company Champion or some guy with a wicked Power sword.

 

I'm not talking about the BT Codex EC. But the EC in an older IA. What invalidated the original Emperors Champion, that was open to all chapters?

 

Read the Librarian entry. USE SPACE MARINE CODEX. Reading is fun! As for weapons and wargear, what he has on him. So "Force Weapon, Pyshic Hood, and possibly a bolt pistol".

 

Then your Libby now has no powers. As 'Storm of the Emperors Wrath' no longer exists, nor do the powers on page 21...

 

If his wargear is only from the article, and there are no options, then he only has a Bolter, CCW, Frag Grenades, Melta Bombs, Force Weapon and Psychic Hood. Or maybe only the FW and PH, depending on your interpretation of "is now equipped with".

 

But no Termy arrmour, Honours, Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Familiar, etc...

 

Combat Tactics....Mmm, that's iffy. The Deathwatch Captain might not be able to take a Command Squad, because...

1. Why the bloody hell does a Deathwatch Captain have a Command Squad from a random Chapter? Plus, he doesn't have that option in the PDF.

2. Combat Tactics.....iffy. Probably not.

 

1) He's a Space Marine Captain. Space Marine Captains are allowed a Command Squad that doesn't take a HQ FoC slot. Unless he's not a Space Marine Captain. He doesn't have a Space Marine Captains stat line though... Should he be bumped to WS6?

 

Will you may want to, it's not a great idea. Now, if you took some Sternguard and made them "count as" Deathwatch, gave them whatever ammo options they had, painted them as Deathwatch, then yes that would be better. They are 1 Point Cheaper, they have 1 more attack, have higher Leadership

 

Agreed. It seems alongside all the rest of the grab bag cherry picking, the new Dex took the best from the Ordo Xenos and made the Sternguard out of it. A UM Sternguard member being seconded intot he Deathwatch must be kicking himself over losing his special ammo to the sub standard stuff the Ordo Xenos has access to...

[Leethal]

I'm not sure if the Deathwatch Captain would count as an "actual" Space Marine Captain, despite the name. That's up to GW to clarify, but you would have use the Deathwatch statline...or houserule it.

 

The older IA Emp Champ is no longer valid. Yeah, just ... take some random guy with a nice looking power sword and make him .... the...sergeant. Or something. I personally I have 7 Emperor Champ Models, in the process of stripping them, and in the end turn them into "Relic Blade Honor Guard".

 

You're best and most competitive method is to use Codex: Space Marines, take a Librarian, some Sternguard and color their armor black with random shoulderpads.

[Gentlemanloser]

The older IA Emp Champ is no longer valid.

 

Why?

 

What makes that out dated and no longer valid, and the Deathwatch PDF still fine?

[number6]

The older IA Emp Champ is no longer valid.

 

Why?

 

What makes that out dated and no longer valid, and the Deathwatch PDF still fine?

Because Codex: Black Templars came along and invalidated it. In the same way the Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Witch Hunters came along and invalidated the old Codex: Assassins. If you want to use an Emperor's Champion, you must play BTs now.

 

On the other hand, nothing has come along to invalidate/replace the Deathwatch PDF. It's still available for download and is "Chapter Approved". It may be outdated and in need of FAQ help, but ... what forum are you posting in again? :)

 

As always, you and your mates can game using whatever rules you want. Just don't expect your houseruled Deathwatch and Emperor's Champion rules to translate over to outsiders or to tournaments.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why did the BT codex invalidate the all chapter EC (it wasn't a BT article)? the BT Codex should only have invalidated that article for Black Templars using an EC, as they now had newer rules for this unit. No one else had newer rules.

 

But what you're really saying, is although the rules no longer work nor make sense, until there is released some sort of Ordo Xenos (or Deathwatch specific?) newer information, then the current PDF stands?

 

(Not trying to be pedantic nor arguementative, really I'm not. But there should be some sort of current ground on when obviously old and out dated rules become unuseable obviously old and outdated rules)

 

Bascially, if the BT Codex upadated and invalidated an article open to other codexes (SM, etc), then the same *must* hold for the Deathwatch article. the SM codex was updated, which updated and invalidates the Deathwatch article as it pertains to the Ordo Xenos (as the information in said article is based on the old SM Codex rules, which are no longer valid).

 

Otherwise we have Space Marine Captins with the wrong point costs and stat line, no Combat Tactics, no Powers for the Librarians (No stat line for them either...), no wargear/weapon options etc. Sure you can house rule the PDF to work, but then we're back to house ruling the EC into the Grey Knights...

 

Edit cuz my typing sucks.

[number6]

Why did the BT codex invalidate the all chapter EC (it wasn't a BT article)? the BT Codex should only have invalidated that article for Black Templars using an EC, as they now had newer rules for this unit. No one else had newer rules.

Codex: Black Templars established that the EC is a specific character to the BTs. Them's the breaks.

But what you're really saying, is although the rules no longer work nor make sense, until there is released some sort of Ordo Xenos (or Deathwatch specific?) newer information, then the current PDF stands?

Yes. Either that, or until GW pulls the PDF and/or says that it is no longer valid for tourney play. (Though even then they could take a tack they have before and keep it available for "fun purposes only".)

Bascially, if the BT Codex upadated and invalidated an article open to other codexes (SM, etc), then the same *must* hold for the Deathwatch article. the SM codex was updated, which updated and invalidates the Deathwatch article as it pertains to the Ordo Xenos (as the information in said article is based on the old SM Codex rules, which are no longer valid).

 

Otherwise we have Space Marine Captins with the wrong point costs and stat line, no Combat Tactics, no Powers for the Librarians (No stat line for them either...), no wargear/weapon options etc. Sure you can house rule the PDF to work, but then we're back to house ruling the EC into the Grey Knights...

The 4th edition Codex: Space Marines conflicted with the Space Marines rules in Codex: Daemonhunters, but did GW FAQ or fix this in any way? No. We have been left with an entirely legal codex with references to units that don't exist, or have changed radically since C: DH was released. The 5th edition Codex: Space Marines exacerbates the problem, but it certainly isn't a new one for us.

 

FWIW: Codex: Space Wolves is in a similar quandary.

 

The fact is, GW doesn't see fit to fix references in older documents -- that remain playable with GW's official stamp of approval -- despite all the rules headaches that result from such inaction. This is not new behavior, it is old and well-established behavior. Sadly, without any guidance from GW about what to do about such things, you're going to have to wing it with your mates and query any tourneys you go to quite extensively before you know what you'll be allowed to do.

 

Them's the breaks.

 

As I (and others) have said before, if you want these issues addressed, you're going to have to confront GW personally with them. Write them, and tell them what needs changing. Only when they receive too many complaints/requests to ignore will they act.