Astartes Tactical Treatise.

[Vaaish]

With the new codex, autocannons come on dreads and preds now. if you wanted to go all out that would be 6 2linked autocannon and 3 singles.... total of 18 possible AC rounds at 48" not something to easily discount especially if combined with a few squads rapid firing. I understand it may be controversial and I spent several days thinking over the implications of this classification. While I could class weapons based on target, I felt that was too limiting and ambiguous with the weapon bleed. I decided to instead class them based on availability and capability. I feel the three chosen complement the others best and form the basis that can be targeted heavily in any direction with the addition of missiles meltas or the like in other units based on player preference.

 

2. I intentionally avoided this because I don't believe that shooty or assaulty really come into play in the discussion of either of these styles. You have to take weapons no matter if you have an assaulty or shooty army, and either type can be played with mobile/static/hybrid in mind.

 

3. Again I'm writing this as a general basis for the effective use of the marine force. even though there will be a small discussion on problematic units and concepts, I don't think that it would be in the scope of the document to talk about specialized and balanced lists here.

[BoonKin]

A very good tactica Vaaish. To be honest I havent seen/thought about marines in the perspectives you just outlined. Although I play Deathwing, your tactica gives me a new way to play them (and SM in general). So I thought I might participate in your exercise..

 

My answer: B & C & A (in that order)

 

My plan (6 squads):

- I would rhino rush both mech tacticals and sternguard to location B to guard the entrance to the objective. Ideally both tacticals should be covering (in front) of the sternguard facing east so that the sternguard can shoot at location C or B (covers two areas)

- i) And in the best case, assuming those Tau units that can fly do fly to the objective, I would deploy a DP squad (missile n plasma) at the objective to provide some resistance. Sternguard and one of the rhino tacticals should be able to help this squad. Then I would DP the 2 squads (MM and plasma) into A (somewhere in the deployment zone) to form a pincer move. Looking at your mountain, I dont think most Tau vehicles can jump to the objective (I may be wrong). So those 2 squads should be able to pop the hammerheads. If possible, I would try to rhino rush into A if the opportunity is right.

- ii) In the worst case, I would just DP all squads onto C if Tau is really aggressive and moves to the objective at once.

 

In sequence:

Turn 1: Rhino rush and sternguard walk to B.

Turn 2: DP squad (missile & plasma) to C

Turn 3+: DP all remaining squads to A, while rhino rush and sternguard gate to A. Leaving one tactical squad to secure the objective.

 

That would be my little plan for this exercise. What do you think?

[Ming]

Something else to check on...

 

Does the psychic power Gate really achieve the benefit of beacons? I had not thought of that implication myself, since you are being moved by a psychic power/magic instead of a teleport platform or Pod using transponder recievers and computer technology. If Gate does not become more accurate from the beacons, I'd edit or correct that assumption, or explain better here as a benefit.

 

Also note, that IMTO (in my tactical opinion) marine dedicated transports (Rhino, Razor, Pod) are efficient force multipliers. Rhinos are cost effective, come with a (easily forgotten) storm bolter, and overall price wise are near equivalent in value as just adding 3 more marines. If you think of them as a portable shield that can fire back or move you, or can use as a portable bunker, the value is there. Same goes for Pods, as they can deliver you to the objective potentially quicker. Razorbacks are a special case, if you think of them as not only a transport for a small squad, they also supply the squad's heavy firepower to make them a near-full squad equivalent, for almost the same costs. As I have proposed elsewhere, a SM force is best mobile, and 50% mobility better than walking is tactically important and the benchmark. You may want to similarly benchmark that hypermobile achieves >75% mobile, and static is <25% mobile.

 

Congrats on cracking the nut on autocannons. I have not seen that brilliant observation elsewhere. I'm torn bwtween keeping my razorbacks and predators as TLLC platforms or revising to autocannon platforms. I think I'll just have to get a razorback kit and see...

 

Lets just say Captain Ardias of the 3rd Co Ultras is a Hybrid Warfare proponent...

[Vaaish]

Does the psychic power Gate really achieve the benefit of beacons? I had not thought of that implication myself, since you are being moved by a psychic power/magic instead of a teleport platform or Pod using transponder recievers and computer technology. If Gate does not become more accurate from the beacons, I'd edit or correct that assumption, or explain better here as a benefit.

 

I believe it does. Gate uses the rules for deep striking and beacons prevent scatter on deep strikes within 6" so it should follow that gate won't scatter near a beacon.

 

Thanks for the kind words. I agree that transport is a definite force multiplier. It allows a cheap way to enhance strengths and limit weaknesses. Personally I too am fond of hybrid warfare with a slant toward more mobile elements.

[Vaaish]

added exercise 2 and a discussion of the options in exercise 1.

 

Boon: your plan seems sound.

[minigun762]

With the new codex, autocannons come on dreads and preds now. if you wanted to go all out that would be 6 2linked autocannon and 3 singles.... total of 18 possible AC rounds at 48"

 

Oh thats right, still thinking of the old codex.

You're right though, the Autocannon is a lovely and under appreciated weapon.

 

I understand what you're trying to do with the scope of the tactica and I'm not trying to shift your focus, sorry if it sounds like I am. ;)

Personally I tend to think of the 3 phases of the turn (movement, shooting and assault) and base my army building and game plan on all 3, even if the plan is to avoid one altogether, so in my eyes I saw a discussion about movement and shooting but not assault.

 

With 3rd point, I was mostly going with the assumption that you are promoting a "balanced" army in all senses of the word, so I wanted to see your advice on how balance handles extremes in light of identifying your own strengths and weaknesses and comparing them to the opponent's.

If that makes sense.

[srpelicano]

This was an excellent tactica. I am a budding Marines player and this really helped me to come up with ideas on how to play the army. Keep it up!

[BoonKin]

I like doing these exercises..

 

My take on exercise 2:

- Assuming the rhino squad is combat squaded (i hope so), the missile squad stay put and attack Bravo's firebase (dreadnought). Flamer squad proceed to engage the assault force.

- If the drop squad is combat squaded (or not), this squad goes and engage the assault force, hoping that if they win combat, they are close enough to use MM and flamer.

- Sternguard and Librarian gate to in between the assault force and firebase (ignore speeders), and try to eliminate the assault force (distracts the firebase). If everything is successful, sternguard and librarian gate to the flank and allow the 2 tactical squads to engage firebase.

- The final drop squad should be to secure the objective, and hopefully take out the speeders. If not, as a precaution, sternguard and lib can gate close to the objective and try to take out speeders themselves.

 

I find this exercise slightly harder but more challenging than the 1st one :(

[Vaaish]

Boon: the rhino squad is not using combat squads. It can't in order to get the entire squad in position by the top of turn three. No units in force Alpha use combat squads.

 

On your answers:

 

The missile launcher probably won't do much to his firebase. At best you will kill one dread leaving the plasma cannons and other dread but your chances are slim.

 

The Rhino squad should engage, you should be able to lock both assault sections in multiple combat. This prevents him from shooting you unless he chooses to fail his morale should he lose combats.

 

The drop squad should provide fire support or take on the speeders.

 

Sternguard is almost correct. It is in range to gate within rapid fire range of the firebase. They can likely take down one plasma cannon or the dread and either way it forces the firebase to deal with them. The assault sections are weak enough that it shouldn't need the sternguards help to neutralize.

 

The final drop pod should land to support the sternguard in their attack on the firebase and combat squad.

 

Your troops near the objective should be able to deal with the assault and retain control of the objective.

 

all of this boils down to C being the correct answer

 

[BoonKin]

Pardon me for not recognising the combat squad rule. I havent played tacticals for a long time. Really sorry about that :)

 

Yeah ok if the rhino squad is not combat squaded, then it would have to engage the assault force. Actually yeah the assault force isnt strong, so prob the rhino squad and sternguard should be able to handle it well. Then together with the final drop squad, proceed to engage his firebase, with the librarian+sternguard gating somewhere near the firebase (reposition) and form another pincer move. The other drop squad should be concentrating on securing the objectives.

 

Just a question: will you still be using drop pod (majority) lists in your future exercise? I think DP lists are (can be) deadly but somehow I find it...as if something is missing from the list. Although you get the element of surprise, which is very important in the current games, but then this list may not be balanced, ie facing lists such as hordes or necrons would mean some changes..

 

But personally I am a fan of DP and DS. That makes the phrase "Death from above" come to life :(

[Vaaish]

It was an oversight in the scenario description that I've reworded to make more clear. For your second question, I may or I may not. Drop pod lists are somewhat simpler to put into a particular scenario when you are trying to limit options to emphasis a point.

[Ming]

Scenario 2 needs a little more clarification methinks. It would seem the firebase consists of the 2 dreads and Master of the Forge? Plus one of the squads or two combat squads containing the HWs (leaving the assualt force with no PCs)? I cannot fathom a librarian with sternguard taking on up to 4 units there, so gating there may be a mistake. Part of my issue may also be distance perception. Regardless, 2 dreads and 10 other marines locking up the Stern and Librarian could put alot of instakill on you. Overall, it is unclear to me where the narrative comment "you may take out a plasma cannon" would come from, unless gating gets you in CC with just one demi-squad. Overall, the situation is tough!

 

My take on turn 3 is a hybrid - to use the sternguard and librarian to attack the assault force, smiting and pistoling them near death or eliminating them in CC. If the scenario calls for just capturing objectives, the LSs must also be taken out ASAP by the tactical squads if the MMs are in range, and this plays heavily (Like chess, you have to think a few turns in advance here). Otherwise, if the MMs are not in range of the LSs one tactical squad (w/ Rhino) puts supporting fire against the assault force while the other squad (on foot) moves to secure the objective (may take 2 turns to get there). That leaves the reserve Pod squad to have a fexible mission of either engaging the Red Team firebase, or further securing the objective and using the Pod to block LOS to boot. Eliminating the LSs now may win the game and eliminate the possibility of a draw last turn, with the Sternguard blocking the Red Force advance. If you eliminate the enemy mobility, they may not be able to even contest an objective turn 5. Distance here plays heavy on decision making. Especially since the Red Team outguns you for distance shooting.

[m14xx1]

what is the best way to field autocannons? ive always thought that they were underused. im going to toy with dualing them on plain dreads. preds would be cheaper, but not twin linked.

[Vaaish]

Red force break down is this:

The firebase consists of 2 dreads, master of the forge, and two 5 man combat squads with one plasma cannon each.

The assault combat squads consist of 2 rhinos and two 5 man combat squads with one plasma gun each.

 

 

Gating the libby and sternguard to the firebase does look risky, but your other squads can take down the assault force and if you are locked in combat he won't be shooting at your scoring units with the firebase. The sternguard can definately take down one of the plasma cannon squads in the firebase which means they can probably survive a hit with the other and it distracts your enemy from the objective. Your drop pods can target the speeders as can one multi melta from the other tac squad near the objective. your pod will come next turn and can be used to pick apart the rest of the firebase or reinforce the objective. You will likely loose some of the sternguard but in doing so you will prevent him from threatening your position. If you target the assault units with the sternguard, you will still face the weapons from the firebase, just more of them.

 

 

M1: I've been thinking one dread with 2 tlac and 2 preds would be sufficient and pretty cheap. leaves plenty of slots open for other options too. alternatively 2 dreads in that config would be brutal and still let you take termies, sternguard or whatever and leave the heavy support free. The upside is that a tlac dread isn't as scary as whatever packs lascannons.

 

EDIT: added in the first draft of problem units. Not sure that I like the wording or if I'm happy with how I conveyed the concepts. There may be heavy revisions to follow.

[Vaaish]

finished the problem units section, need to take a break now and then check it over again to see if it conveys the concepts I want.

[Brother Tual]

Just a thing on the maxing of the autocannon - Master of the forge and 6 dreads... 24 shots all twin linked and all mobile... 8)

[Vaaish]

yep. Even though it might leave you lacking for heavy av, I think that definitely takes the weapon out of the "scarce" category. That many shots is nothing to sneeze at especially on av12 walker platforms.

[minigun762]

I thought you did an excellent job with the Tactical squad issues. You really made it obvious that the problem of "what do these guys do?" and how to deal with it.

Very often we define the Tactical squad by its heavy weapon instead of looking at it as a "what if" back up kind of weapon.

Hopefully now people will realize that the purpose of Tactical squads is close range fire fights, typically taking or protecting an objective. The weapon loadout should be used to support them in that role, not give them an entirely different role.

[BrotherAtrox]

yep. Even though it might leave you lacking for heavy av, I think that definitely takes the weapon out of the "scarce" category. That many shots is nothing to sneeze at especially on av12 walker platforms.

 

I've wanted to take a list like this against our local Dark Eldar player. He rarely takes the field with anything over AV11 and T4. Mostly its more like AV10 and T3

[Vaaish]

I've reworked the land speeder segment and added the first section on difficult concepts. That leaves two more concepts to discuss and the answers to exercise two before I believe this tactica will be finished.

 

EDIT: added in the rest of the difficult concepts. I'm not entirely happy with the close combat section so I'll probably revisit it shortly. for now I need to let it settle a bit.

[infamousagenda]

Vaaish

 

I was very impressed with your grammar and cohesive sense of topic direction. One topic I question is your idea on wasted combat potential. I am going to apply an accounting principle here (time value of money) that I think applies to 40k as well. A bolter shot in turn 1 is more valuable than a bolter shot in turn 6. Well your probably thinking why is that? Realize that for every causality you cause as early as possible means there is one less opponent that could potentially be firing every turn. You also may be thinking why did I bring this up? Well in your tactical squad section you said that adding heavy weapons to the mix muddles their usage and should only be used as a redundancy. I respectfully disagree. I think that combat squads can be used to break the wasted combat potiential when adding a heavy weapon. When marines are in a transport realize that for atleast 1 turn and most likely 2 turns they are not firing their bolters. Which is a total waste, but heavy weapons allow the opportunity to fire during those crucial turns.

 

Combat squads paired with a razorback is typically the way I like to go. The reason is because for 5 more points over a rhino you are now receiving the fire power of a heavy weapon from the vehicle and the squads heavy weapon. Yes their is the likely potiential you are wasting 4 bolters from the heavy combat squad, but I think the 2 heavy weapons can be worth it. The way to make this loss acceptable in game turns is in application of missions and objectives. Since tactical squads are scoring units its not a bad idea to give a tactical squad a heavy weapon, combat squad them out, and throw the reminder of the squad in a razorback. This provides a good measure of mobility with firepower and allows you to take an objective. Effectively hitting 3 birds with 1 stone...er squad. I look at it as though a combat squad with a heavy weapon by itself isn't much of a threat, but if it sits on an objective the enemy needs to pay much more attention to it or risk forfeiting the mission's purpose.

 

Essentially I realize that the loss of 4 bolters in the army is magnified over how many squads are treated in this manner. I do however think through cost-benefit analysis that the army can benefit from a few squads that are setup in this way. I am also an advocate of giving the transported squad some additional equipment. This puts the flexibly into the tactical squad. Giving your sergeant a combi-weapon and a corresponding special weapon greatly increases the squads fire power and probability of success. As an example give the sergeant a combi-flamer, powerfist, and the one guy a flamer. Now you are able to jump out of the vehicle use two flamers and assault. Another variation may be to give the sergeant a combi-meltagun and a tactical marine a meltagun. I feel as though the cost on these setups isnt prohibitive and is well worth the points. Personally I find that the flamer setup is optimal only because it allows assualting afterwards which as Vaaish pointed out denies the enemy return fire. Flamers auto hit and spread many wounds throughout the opponent. It contains the same hitting power (str) as the bolters and it can be just as effective as an entire 10 man squad rapid firing bolters. The difference is the added benefit of assualting too, thus negating either a counter charge or heavy return fire. I was going to talk a little bit more about another economic topic that I think also applies to 40k (comparative advantage), but its late so I'll save that for another time.

[Vaaish]

Hey, thanks for the reply. I think if you read through the difficult concepts section on combat squads I deal with something very similar and come to nearly the same conclusion in reference to combat squads and wasted potential. It doesn't completely eliminate the wasted potential because as you said you are still in the transport but it is a compromise between the two extremes. If combat squads are not used, and they won't always be useful, my point still stands.

 

I should note that if the vehicle has moved, I don't believe you can hop out, flame and then assault. If that were the case you'd have the old 3rd edition rhino rush.

[infamousagenda]

You are correct sir about disembarking if the vehicle has already moved. You can still hop out before moving and fire the assault weapons and then assault. Obviously you wouldnt do this in turn 1 and maybe not even turn 2. I made a mistake in that I thought you could pivot the vehicle (which doesnt count as moving, but in this case it does) and then hop out 2 inches from the hatch, move 6 more inches and then assault. Grr This is what I get for not playing so frequently!

[Vaaish]

I've added the closing statements and exercise 2 discussion. While this "finishes" the tactica, I still need to review the close combat segment before it is truly done.

[Sigismund Himself]

I've added the closing statements and exercise 2 discussion. While this "finishes" the tactica, I still need to review the close combat segment before it is truly done.

Once it's done, the Librarium would be glad to have it among the articles.