Heroic Intervention v. Locator Beacon

[Brother Gothard]

So we all know that if jump pack equipped Vanguard deep strike they may choose to make a heroic intervention move that allows them to forgo shooting and running in order to assault that turn. Basic stuff. We also know that locator beacons allow units or models deep striking within 6" of the beacon to do so without rolling for scatter. Basic stuff, again.

 

Here's the pickle: the Vanguard Heroic Intervention rules state that you declare heroic intervention "before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled" (C:SM, 62).; the rules for the locator beacon mean you do not roll for scatter.

 

What are we to extract from this? By RAW, you declare heroic intervention before you roll for scatter dice. If you have deep striked within 6" of a locator beacon, and thus you have not rolled any scatter dice, then are you not permitted to declare heroic intervention? If you never roll for scatter dice, then plausibly there is never a time before you did something that you did not do. Of course, given that there are other occasions where one would be required to roll scatter dice, you have fulfilled the obligations of the declaration of heroic intervention if and only if scatter dice are rolled by you at some other time during the game.

 

Now, I'm not trying to be sneaky here. They intended for us to declare heroic interventions before we resolved whether a unit scatters or not (and how far), to balance out the obvious power of the special rule. Is this perhaps another intended consequence of the way the rules for heroic intervention were written, such that it is not intended for heroic intervention and locator beacons to be mutually inclusive?

 

I wont pretend to understand the intentions of the design team, so I'll conclude with this question: does the fact that you do not roll scatter dice when using a locator beacon mean that you are not permitted to declare a heroic intervention - BY RAW?

[WarpSpawn]

Well, technically, the locator beacon does not say you do not roll the scatter dice, it simply says you do not scatter.

 

So, if it makes you feel better, roll the dice and either disregard the result or place it so it shows a "hit".

 

I think if they intended to prevent heroic intervention using beacons, there are easier (not to mention clearer) ways to say it.

[Brother Gothard]

I do not mean to be rude, but I don't think either of you have really addressed my question directly, especially not boreas (what was that post even about?).

 

Well, technically, the locator beacon does not say you do not roll the scatter dice, it simply says you do not scatter.

 

So, if it makes you feel better, roll the dice and either disregard the result or place it so it shows a "hit".

 

I think if they intended to prevent heroic intervention using beacons, there are easier (not to mention clearer) ways to say it.

1. It does not say I dont roll for scatter, but if I do not scatter I explicitly will not roll for it. As in, it may not say "do not roll for scatter" but it clearly, since I will not scatter, I also will not roll. It doesn't make me feel anything to roll the dice and then disregard it, or place a 'hit' result. But, why would I do that? Can I even do that? I don't scatter, so I wouldn't roll. Or, I could 'make myself feel better' by rolling the dice, but that would have absolutely no impact on what I was doing at the time (indeed, when I feel sad, I could just roll dice, but it wouldn't mean anything)

 

2. I do not disagree that if they intended to prevent heroic interventions off locator beacons they would have made it more explicit. That was not the question from my thread, though. I want to know if by RAW we are allowed to do it or not.

[boreas]

Euh, ok dude, sorry about the humor...

 

Look:

 

-start of the turn, you declare a deepstrike.

-Before rolling the scatter, you declare using Heroic Intervention it does not matter that you will no roll, you are still before that hypothetical roll.

-Once Heroic intervention is declared, deploy near a locator beacon. Do not roll to scatter.

 

It's actually very simple.

 

Phil

 

edit: took out more humor...

[nighthawks]

really - GW has stepped back from RAW - just see the new DA FAQ (really, all of you, it's pretty cool) and I believe from the intelligence (albeit misdirected) that you show in forming your argument, Brother Gothard, that the INTENT of this rule is clear to you. please do not succumb to the urge to find loopholes that shouldn't be there. GW are not that good at rules writing, but what they are trying to communicate is often very clear (and, often enough, not clear at all) - I think we can all agree that this is one of those times where the intention is very clear.

 

And, just so as I do not violate tyhe RAW over intent caveat that is present in this forum, I will note that Boreas and WarpSpawn have both shown how, even within RAW, it is still clear that the scatter roll is irrelevant as the declaration is made prior to the possibility of scatter (i.e. you cannot deep strike, scatter, and then decide weather or not to use heroic intervention) and beacons simply remove that possibility.

 

if your opponent was so unlucky or dumb enough to have allowed a scout biker squad sgt with a homing beacon to survive whilst remaining within 12" (assault range) of a valuable unit - well, maybe he deserved to be assaulted with a DS unit that does not scatter. the pair of units certainly costs enough to offset the capability they offer.

[WarpSpawn]

The thing is Brother Gothard, if you want to find a RAW loophole to exploit (not that I support such things), it needs to be based on a stronger premise than not wishing to roll the dice. The natural state of affairs is to roll, therefore you need an explicit statement telling you not to to contradict this, even if the roll no longer has meaning. Most players will probably never roll them but there is nothing in RAW that prevents youf from doing so.

 

In fact, I would say RAW is weighted against you on this one as page 95 strongly suggests that a "scatter" is a result of the dice, not the act of rolling itself. I would therefore conclude that, if a rule says you do not scatter, you simply disregard a scatter result. Any sensible person would not bother rolling but I will roll my eyes, as well as the dice, if faced with a rules laywer trying to pull something like what you are proposing.

[Brother Gothard]

To be honest, I am really hurt that you are accusing me of 'rules lawyering' or 'loophole exploiting.' I ran over this when I was building an army list for myself to make use of some of the new rules before I bought the models. I saw that you do not scatter, saw that you declare before you roll any dice, and thought "I wonder if this is how it goes." I was not being sneaky or underhanded at all. At least I did not think so.

 

It seemed like an unfair advantage to be able to use Heroic Intervention with locator beacons, given that you will KNOW the models will be arriving exactly where you want them, when the balancing aspect of the rule is that you declare BEFORE you scatter.

 

Though, to be honest, for all your efforts and showing me to be some sneaky cheese-eater, I'm not much moved by your arguments. It is not that I "do not wish" to roll the dice, it is that I do not think I am called upon to do so.

 

But after reading page 95, I'll agree that a "scatter" is a result of a die roll. I also re-read the deep strike rules, and I see that you place a model, then roll the scatter dice. So I can understand what you mean when you say that whether or not I roll dice, the 'declaration' passage is added only to show that I cannot place, roll, then declare, not that I cannot declare if I do not roll for scatter.

 

I guess I was wrong. But all I admit to was an over zealous reading of the rules, and I was not being, and have never been, a rules lawyer.

[WarpSpawn]

Honestly, no offence intended. I just got the impression from one of your posts that you were looking for a RAW loophole in full knowledge of what was intended. I offer sincere apologies if I jumped to erroneous conclusions.

 

I can honestly say if someone deliberately tried to pull something like this, I would not rate them as the world's greatest sportsman. If they tried it as a genuine mistake, I do believe my eyeballs would still find their way into an upright position, just without any hard feelings. So, please accept this :) with no hard feelings. :D

 

I can kind of see where you are coming from but I think the cost of the units concerned, as well as the difficulty in orchestrating it, negates much of the effectiveness. Considering the beacon has to be in place before the deep strike, and the fact that this happens at the start of the movement phase, means that a unit of scout bikers has to survive a whole enemy turn within 12" (give or take) of presumably a nasty enemy unit (assuming you want the Vanguard to earn their keep). You could try it with drop pods and a beacon, but this introduces even more uncertainty if the pod scatters and still runs the risk of that fragile, immobilised vehicle being taken out during that enemy turn. Hardly impossible but I would not expect to see it happen every single game, but I can certainly see how it could be scary when it works.

 

Edit: OK, it is a bit more than 12" but we're still talking pretty close, If I remember right.

[ShinyRhino]

In fact, I would say RAW is weighted against you on this one as page 95 strongly suggests that a "scatter" is a result of the dice, not the act of rolling itself. I would therefore conclude that, if a rule says you do not scatter, you simply disregard a scatter result.

 

This is my way of allowing the use of the beacons, as well. Rolling the "scatter dice" does not mean that you are scattering. Coming up with an arrow and a distance on the dice is what constitutes a scatter. Therefore, the beacon nullifies the RESULT of the roll, not the roll itself. There are still two Hit markers on those dice, and those are certainly not scatters. They're hits.

[nighthawks]

12" is it - 6" for beacon effective range, 6" for asault range - granted you may get an extra inch in if your deep strike circle extends outside of the 6" beacon range, but it's still close, and very hard to arrange as it must be so at the END of the enemy assault phase. it will take a large bike squad to survive 2 asssault rounds with presumably hard targets (which require vanguard level action) and no one is going to stand there and maintain range or not try to destroy the bikes in shooting if not locked. I suppose there is the possibility of a set of hard targets that prefer to not move so as to fire heavy weapons - if this is your vanguard's target, and they have more important targets of their own then the bike scouts or pods that are within range to allow for certain heroic intervention death, then they may bet against the reserves roll and ignore the nearby beacons in order to fufill their objective, but it's a risk that many will not take.

 

the cost of the vanguard + scout bike beacon is rather high for this relativelt modest power. granted, it can be a game changer, but I hardly think it's over powered for it's price.

[WarpSpawn]

Exactly what I was thinking ShinyRhino.

 

Nighthawks, Yeah, I was thinking just under 14" if you clip the beacon zone and place the models accordingly. There is the potential to at least keep the bikers themselves out of assault range but yeah, it most definitely is still close. Not to metnion wound allocation might lose you the beacon before the Vanguard land.

[williamdelgray]

It's similar to the Icon rule for deep-striking chaos units. Just place them and make sure they are within 6" of the beacon. No rolls required.