Legion of the Damned

[Leethal]

Now I was looking through the new codex, and it appears that their 3+ Save is also an invulnerable save. Or do they have a 5++ or something that I missed out on?

 

And some kid at my store was playing them with Special Ammunition which I'm 75% certain is not even possible.

[Cypher 102]

The 3+ save is invulnerable. Legion of the Damned do not have access to special ammo.

[nighthawks]

there is somethign in the codex: Space marines LotD fluff suggesting that they have special ammo, but no rule for it. "twin-linked" deepstrike scatter, slow and purposeful (relentless) with the 3+inv. sv. should be good enough!

[SeattleDV8]

They had special ammo ,but that was a long time ago. That was dropped a... well... a long time ago.

[Gentlemanloser]

Do they also have a 3+ Armour save?

 

I'd say yes, and going by the Necron Wraith FAQ, any 'save' listed in a profile is an armour save. Their special rule then gives them a 3+ Invulnerable save (which they will use most of the time anyway) on top of that.

[nighthawks]

That will be a difficult sell, Gentlemanloser, as their unit entry does not include Power Armour.

[nighthawks]

edit: double post

[Gentlemanloser]

That will be a difficult sell, Gentlemanloser, as their unit entry does not include Power Armour.

 

LoL! Hadn't noticed that. Hmmm... I'm sure it says somewhere the the stat line given lists an 'Armour' save. Are there any other units in the Game (now Wraiths have been FAQed to explain thier 3+ is an armour save, and they have an Invulnerable on top of that) that have a save on thier profile that isn't an 'Armour' save?

 

Maybe they have a natural 3+ Armour save, and don't have 'Power Armour'. If they don't actually have Power Armour, are all minis showing them wearing Power armour no longer WYSIWYG?

 

Could you legitiamly field normal humans with Bolters as LotD, as you're not misrepresenting them?

[WarpSpawn]

WYSIWYG generally means you have to model non-standard equipment. It does not follow that you automatically get all non-standard equipment modeled.

 

From a rules point of view, they do not have power armour. From a fluff and common sense point of view, the models should typically be represented as wearing it, as they are essentially space marines (and not scouts or terminators). Any proxies or counts as models you may wish to use is between you and your opponent. The main thing I would be concerned with is whether your chosen model reasonably represents the physical dimensions of a space marine type model, for the purpose of LoS. Beyond this, I don't much care as long as you tell me what they are before we start playing.

[Gentlemanloser]

But if I fielded humans with Bolters, why would I need my opponents consent? I'm feilding totally correct and WYSIWYG minis for the LotD, if they don't have Power Armour.

 

Aren't I?

 

WYSIWYG generally means you have to model non-standard equipment

 

But you couldn't use Scouts to represent Marines (Without counts as proxying of course....).

[WarpSpawn]

The point is you are not using Legion of the Damned miniatures.

 

You do not need your opponent's permission to use them but you do need an opponent to be willing to play against the minis you are using. As long as you do not take the p***, most people probably will not feel that strongly anyway but non-standard models do reqiure a degree of indulgence and open-mindedness from an opponent.

 

Also, your point about scouts if anything, damages your case. No, I would not generally expect to see scouts used as fully qualified, card carrying space marines. The models for scouts are not the models for space marines in power armour. On a more subjective level, WYSIWYG does kind of extend to using the right model for the job, if nothing else, to make it clear what a model represents. A full army of scouts that count as normal space marines might not be so bad. Mixing them with power armoured models is just going to get confusing.

 

As I said, it's between you and your opponent. I'm not going to say I would refuse to play against anything non-standard because this is simply not true, but everyone does have limits as to what they will tolerate. Learn what your friends limits are and there should not be any problems. You might at least get a few raised eyebrows from strangers though.

[Gentlemanloser]

The models for scouts are not the models for space marines in power armour

 

Is Power Armour non Standard equipment?

 

If we expect to see Power Armour wearing Marines to represnt Power Armour wearing marines, then we don't expect Scout Armour, Terminator Armour or Artificer Armour wearing Marines to represent Power Armour Wearing Marines.

 

So armour worn is part of the expected design/model of a Space Marine.

 

Fluff aside, LotD do not wear Power Armour, so we shouldn't expect to see Power Armour wearing Mini's to represent them.

 

Right?

 

But, GW are releasing Power Armour wearing mini's for the LotD. Are GW releasing mis-equipped Models or should we expect LotD to be Wearing the Power Armour they are modeled to wear?

[WarpSpawn]

I think you are missing the point.

 

The main reason for WYSIWYG is to make sure your opponent knows what to expect when the see your army from across the table. Regardless of the specific wargear, if you dump a unit of scouts on the table and pretend they are normal marines, this clearly not making sure your opponent knows what to expect. If you make an army based entirely on scout models, but use them as normal marines (with all other equipment presented accordingly), this will still be a bit confusing at first but I am sure they would get over it. Some people may still be funny about playing against it (I decline to comment on personal feelings) but I reckon most would be fine.

 

If, on the other hand, you mixed the model types and and rules for scouts and normal marines, and expected your opponent to know what is what, do not be surpised if some people do not accept this.

 

WYSIWYG is largely subjective (outside of a tournament at least). The important thing is to make sure it is clear what you have and that the models you use reasonably represent what they are supposed to be. The easiest way to do this is to use the correct models for each unit type, assuming they exist, or the nearest equivelent based on fluff if they do not. This does not in any way mean artistic licence cannot be used but you should still reasonably represent the unit in question in any way that matters in RAW.

 

Conversions, proxies and counts as are hardly gamebreaking but just don't take the p*** and make sure your opponent is clear on what counts as what.

[Frogstaff]

Why shouldn't we expect power armor minis to represent them? They're space marines, and space marines with 3+ saves wear power armor. However, in this case, they're special space marines, represented by the fact they're all dead, and some sort of ghost space marines. Thus the sole invulnerable save. If power armor had been included in the ghost marines equipment, it would've meant they should have had a regular 3+ save too. Then GW would've had to include a special rule that stated since like most Daemons, LotD only have an invulnerable, and no armor save, they do not get the 3+ armor save from wearing power armor, and that would've just been silly.

 

If you want to represent them with skeletons carrying bolters, that is your prerogative, but don't make claims that those are somehow a more accurate representation of the unit due to your own particular misunderstanding of how WYSIWYG works.

[nighthawks]

frogstaff - there is no text in the special rule that DENIES the 3+ armour save, directly, but it does state that the save "is invulnerable."

 

as for what a number of people have touched on - these are not space marines, they are "damned legionaires". In the fluff, they WERE space marines, that died/got caught in the warp/whatever. they are SPECTRES as indicated in the unit-specific special rule "Unyielding Spectres." Most weapons that deny inv. saves are somehow attuned through psychic or chaotic power to have an impact on those things that are, in a sense, spectral - constructs that are psychic or of the warp. it makes complete sense that such items will have an effect on the LotD and deny an "armour save" as their sprectral nature means that such tangible things as armour hardness is nonsensical.

 

as for the WYSIWYG aspect - they look like marines. if you were to model them as skeletons with bits of marine power armour, I would think that that wuold be fine, too - just so long as everyone knows who and what that unit is, visually, and without having to be pointed out. obviously, scout and Term armour are not represented here, but if the models appear as obviously damned legionaires, I wouldn't have an issue with it, there's no logic in the warp.

[nurglespuss]

Luckily hough, WYSIWYG is treated in a much more sensibl manner in 5th, with much less WYSIWYG-Nazi tendencies. You don't have to represent everything on a model.

[thesolo]

LoL! Hadn't noticed that. Hmmm... I'm sure it says somewhere the the stat line given lists an 'Armour' save. Are there any other units in the Game (now Wraiths have been FAQed to explain thier 3+ is an armour save, and they have an Invulnerable on top of that) that have a save on thier profile that isn't an 'Armour' save?

 

 

Wraiths and Legion of the damned have 2 different rules

 

Wraiths say they have a 3+ invulnerable sv whilst Legion of the damned say thier sv is invulnerable

[Reglor]

LoL! Hadn't noticed that. Hmmm... I'm sure it says somewhere the the stat line given lists an 'Armour' save. Are there any other units in the Game (now Wraiths have been FAQed to explain thier 3+ is an armour save, and they have an Invulnerable on top of that) that have a save on thier profile that isn't an 'Armour' save?

 

 

Wraiths and Legion of the damned have 2 different rules

 

Wraiths say they have a 3+ invulnerable sv whilst Legion of the damned say thier sv is invulnerable

 

Daemon/Witch Hunter Assasins and Witch Hunter Arco-flagellants all have a saving throw listed in their profile that is an invulnerable one.

[maniclurker]

frogstaff - there is no text in the special rule that DENIES the 3+ armour save, directly, but it does state that the save "is invulnerable."

 

as for what a number of people have touched on - these are not space marines, they are "damned legionaires". In the fluff, they WERE space marines, that died/got caught in the warp/whatever. they are SPECTRES as indicated in the unit-specific special rule "Unyielding Spectres." Most weapons that deny inv. saves are somehow attuned through psychic or chaotic power to have an impact on those things that are, in a sense, spectral - constructs that are psychic or of the warp. it makes complete sense that such items will have an effect on the LotD and deny an "armour save" as their sprectral nature means that such tangible things as armour hardness is nonsensical.

 

as for the WYSIWYG aspect - they look like marines. if you were to model them as skeletons with bits of marine power armour, I would think that that wuold be fine, too - just so long as everyone knows who and what that unit is, visually, and without having to be pointed out. obviously, scout and Term armour are not represented here, but if the models appear as obviously damned legionaires, I wouldn't have an issue with it, there's no logic in the warp.

 

Everyone, please refer back to this post for all of your LotD questions. He's so right, it's kinda scary. They have an invul save that is 3+, and not an armor save. It doesn't refer to their save as an armor save that is also invulnerable, it says that their save is invulnerable. Period. The fluff reason is covered by nighthawk.

[Gentlemanloser]

Finally remembered to check the rule book about the Characteristics Page.

 

The SV of a mini's profile is thier Armour Save. Irregardless of whatever Wargear they might have, as the armour save could be natural (somehow).

 

While Power Armour confers a 3+ Armour save as wargear, the LotD get a 3+ Save, as thier Armour Save characteristic on thier Profile lists 3+ (Same deal for Death Cult Assassins, etc. If they should have had only an Invulnerable Save, it sohuld have been listed as sv -/0 with the Invulnerable, as usual, listed in thier entry). As they don't have Power Armour in thier Wargear, we must assume their etherial warp based nature confers a natural 3+ Armour Save, in addition to the Invulnerable save they are given by thier unit entry.

 

From 'Zero Level Characteristics;

 

A warrior with an Armour Saving Throw of '-' has no armour save at all.

 

From Armour Saves in the Shooting Section;

 

If a model has a Sv value of 6 or better on its profile, <snip> This is called an Armour Saving Throw

[nighthawks]

FAQ-worthy