Sternguard special ammo: What is a "boltgun"

[Zieggenfus]

"... replaces the boltgun profile (including boltguns that are part of a combi-weapon)...".

 

I take this parenthetical to mean that special issue ammunition is unusable with Storm Bolters, much less bolt pistols.

 

In 4th Ed, Storm Bolters where described as firing the same ammunition as normal boltguns, but this is 5th Ed. The special rule specifies boltguns to include only normal boltguns and combi-bolters, making no mention of Storm Bolters.

 

Does this seem correct? I'd really like to be wrong on this.

[Sully ad Bellum]

This is an excellent question. Zieggenfus, where did you see the answer for this? I was looking, too.

 

It is not wrong to apply the common-law canon of rules construction called expressio unius est exclusio alterius, which means "to express or include one thing implies the exclusion of the other, or of the alternative." Black's Law Dictionary, "expressio unius" (8th ed. 2004). But there is another, possibly more persuasive argument to consider first.

 

According to the language of the rule, the "special ammunition type replaces the boltgun profile (including boltguns that are part of a combi-weapon) with the one shown here." Codex: Space Marines, 63 (5th ed. 2008). The special ammunition types are each "Rapid Fire," which is roughly consistent with the "Rapid Fire" character of a boltgun/combi-bolter. Id at 63, 100. See also Codex, 97 and 144 (5th ed. 2008) (Boltgun Profile). The profiles of the special ammunition types modify only the Range, Strength, AP, and some ancillary aspects of the bolt round itself. The profiles do not change the "Rapid Fire" Type of the "boltgun profile." The profiles of the special ammunition types are not intended to modify the Type of the weapon itself, but merely the violence caused by the weapon. Applying the special ammunition types to storm bolters ("Assault") or bolt pistols ("Pistol") would alter the Type of weapon from "Assault/Pistol" to "Rapid Fire." See Codex, 97, 99, and 104 (5th ed. 2008) (Bolt Pistol Profile, Storm Bolter Profile). Because special ammunition types' profiles do not modify the weapon's Type, the special ammunition types are not intended to be used with bolt pistols and/or storm bolters.

 

It could also be argued, using the expressio unius doctrine, that a bolt pistol is fundamentally different from a boltgun, and the two are both fundamentally different from a storm bolter. This is shown in the Wargear section of the Codex, in which the profiles of the boltgun, the bolt pistol, the combi-weapon, and the storm bolter are each clearly described as separate and distinct weapon categories. Codex at 97, 99. Because they are listed separately, they are each different in kind. The rules for special ammunition types specify that special ammunition types may be used in "boltguns" and "boltguns that are part of a combi-weapon." Id. at 63. Expressio unius means that the special ammunition types may be used in conjunction with the expressly-enumerated "boltgun" wargear and "combi-weapon" wargear, but not with the unmentioned "bolt pistol" wargear or "storm bolter" wargear.

 

So, sadly, this wonderful 70-caliber's worth of shooty violence can only be applied to 70-cal boltguns and 70-cal combi-weapons, not 70-cal storm bolters or 70-cal bolt pistols. I hope that clears things up once and for all.

 

Rules analysis proudly brought to you by Sully.

"A Fist is a Thinker"

[Captain Malachi]

I swear it says in the 'dex what counts as a boltgun, much simpler than your answer scully.

[Sully ad Bellum]

It's "Sully," not "Scully," thanks all the same.

 

Pages 97 and 99 expressly define boltgun, bolt pistol, combi-weapon, and storm bolter as different items of wargear. See para. 2 of my post.

 

Doesn't change the fact that they all fire the exact same 2-stage, rocket-propelled, 70-caliber explosive rounds. It's difficult for some people to suspend conventional logic and work within the construct of the gaming rules. Thus, an in-depth rules analysis is helpful.

 

It's helpful to remember, sometimes, that these aren't actually ten marines shooting their rapid-fire weapons exactly 10 times at a certain range, or exactly 20 times at another, closer range. Rather, these are models representing ten marines, and the Rapid Fire rules represent the varying effectiveness of these notional marines firing a lot more rounds than that. It's all about the percentages, I've come to find out...much to my disappointment. I like the fluff so much better.

 

Movie Marines, anyone?

[WarpSpawn]

I really think you are overthinking this Sully. Is says "boltgun", not "2-stage, rocket-propelled, 70-caliber explosive round firing weapon".

 

As you rightly say, they have different stat lines for the different bolt weapons. The special ammo applies to the one called a "boltgun" and combi weapons include a "boltgun" (as well as being explicitly included in the rule).

[Sully ad Bellum]

You may be right, Warpspawn. :)

 

All I did was explain the rules and apply them in a way that I hope was clear and easy to reference. But my rules analysis was based upon a presumption that weapons types are unalterable and mutually-exclusive. This is potentially a big presumption, I think.

 

My question for you, Warpspawn, is this: what is the difference between a boltgun, a bolt pistol, and a storm bolter?

[WarpSpawn]

Depends whether you are talking fluff or rules but, in this specific case, the only thing that really matters is that one of them is called a "boltgun" and the rest are not. "Bolter" and "boltgun" generally seem to be interchangable, as long as you do not stick the word "storm" in front of it.

 

What's in a name you might ask. Would a boltgun by any other name make as big holes? Probably, but it won't be using special issue ammo to do it.

[Seahawk]

Bolter and combi-bolter :(.

 

Oh, they're 2-stage, rocket-propelled, 75-caliber, mass-reactive, explosive rounds.

 

:)

[Gentlemanloser]

I think the better question would be why ever pay the point cost to upgrade to a Storm Bolter, when it costs more and you lose the amasing special ammo, that make the Sternguard what they are.

 

I mean, we've got about another 5 years of play time, that if you really wanted a squad of SB using Space Marines, ally in a couple of Grey Kight squads, that net you scoring, all SB, Fearless, WS5 and S6. For the same cost.

 

If you really want a Squad of all SB using Marines...

[ShinyRhino]

I think the better question would be why ever pay the point cost to upgrade to a Storm Bolter, when it costs more and you lose the amasing special ammo, that make the Sternguard what they are.

 

I mean, we've got about another 5 years of play time, that if you really wanted a squad of SB using Space Marines, ally in a couple of Grey Kight squads, that net you scoring, all SB, Fearless, WS5 and S6. For the same cost.

 

If you really want a Squad of all SB using Marines...

 

The main difference between the stormbolter and combi-bolter armament is that stormbolters are Assault 2. Therefore, you can fire two shots before the charge, as opposed to the one from the general-issue bolt pistol. Also, the stormbolter can fire at 24" instyead of 12" of the bolt pistol. Not saying it'd be a WISE choice, but those are the advantages of the stormbolter over arming with the combi-bolter.

As for the allies thing, not all of us bother to ally non-Codex units. I don't own the codexes for that, and have no real interest in such a tactic. (Personally, I feel it stinks of cheese, but that's a personal opinion, and irrelevant to the issue at hand.)

[Gentlemanloser]

Why would you ever want to charge a unit of SG, over the opportunity to use one of thier special ammo?

 

It's not even an unwise choice, there really is no choice. Waste more points just to make these a glorified (as in all vet for the second attack) Tac squad.

 

The ability to either charge after shooting, or move and fire at 24" instead of 12" is so far outwieghed by thier special ammo, they sohuld get a points reduction if you give them Storm Bolters. Not have to pay extra for the priviledge.

 

With the combi bolters, you don't lose what makes SG worth buying over another squad of marines. The extra cost is for the one shot extra type of attack you're given. If Combi bolters locked you out of the special ammo, I'd rank them right up there with Storm Bolters. ;)

[nighthawks]

gentlmanlooser - 'tis sometimes better to charge rather than BE charged. in such cases, it is often beneficial to shoot, too. a SB or two doesn't strike me as a flawed tactic. though combi melta and combi flamer weapons are likely as good if not better, there is always the ability to reach out and touch someone with the SB that the combis DON'T offer.

 

but I digress, this is a place to discuss rules, not tactics. - SBs and BPs are not "boltguns" for special ammo purposes. If it is FAQed otherwise, then SBs are a no-brainer, but I don't forsee that happening.

[Praeger]

As Nighthawk has pointed out:

 

this is a place to discuss rules, not tactics.

 

or fluff.

 

Topic closed