Doghouse Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 What time period? Generally speaking the Great Crusade covers about two hundred years of warfare in which time there were several important leaps in technology. The term "Pre-Heresy" has come to incorporate everything between the time of the Unification and the end of the Great Crusade which ended with Horus's betrayal. We all have a general idea of what would have been around at the time in terms of vehicles, armour variants, etc, but in order to be historically accurate as I can I need to look at this in much greater detail. The inclusion of something like MK IV armour at the begining of the Great Crusade could be the equivilant of including an M16 in a first world war army. Broadly speaking they are both from the first half of the twentieth century but we know that a soldier carrying an M16 as he goes over the top is historically wrong and the same can be applied to the Great Crusade. For example; when Horus was first greeted by the Emperor it's highly unlikely that the Astartes that accompanied him were wearing Mk IV or Mk V plate armour. Given that it was early on in the cruade it's much more likely that they wore Mk II armour or maybe Mk III at a stretch. So this is my first hurdle with the force. Models Unfortunately there are very few models that can be concidered true crusade era minis. There are the classic range of metal models but very few of them are true representations of the armour and weapons of the time. The only ones that could be concidered such are the metal minis with the arms and shoulder pads attached, the reason being those without arms use the plastic Mk VII bits to complete them. Even the Forge World MK IV heads appear to be variants incorporating more elements of the Mk VII. This also includes what has become known as the "crusade" helm from the black templars upgrade sprue which is a modified Mk VII helm rather than a true Mk II or Mk III lid. Realisticaly speaking it's going to be tough to represent a proper crusade force that are not all the same model unless each and every model is built from scratch. I think the best I can hope for is a representation of the armour of the time so that's what I'm aiming for here. I'm setting the army towards the end of the Great Crusade so will be using a mix of MK II and Mk IV suits of plate armour as MK III never really took off as a main stream armour variant instead being used for boarding actions and tunnel fighting. I'm not sure which Legion to do at the moment as it all depends on the time period, not everyone had full access to the newer Maximus armour before the Heresy broke out so that's a factor that needs to be concidered when buiding the army. Here's the first two WIPs that I'm working on but I have a full squad waiting in the wings to be started on. I've used the AoBR tactical marine legs with the Mk IV for these first two but am converting the rest of the squad using a fairly easy technique I've come up with. I still have to sculpt the groin guard and clean them up a little. I've tried trimming the shoulder trim on the shoulder pads for the captain but may go back and take them off and resculpt them from scratch. The reason for this is that the trim on the Mk VII pads are way too thick for Mk IV, I've also trimmed the back pack and am sculpting on the Mk IV detailing. I've also started the Mk IV boltgun, trimmed the cuffs off the captain and will be sculpting additional details onto the visor of the helms. I've used the Forge World Cadian veteran upgrade heads as they are slightly smaller and make the bodies more proportionate. I had to cut off the bandage on this guy that covered his eye and then sculpt an ear and bionic eye. I'll be adding more detailing later. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture013-9.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture014-5.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture015-5.jpg http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture016-6.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Wow that's impressive. The cadian heads do make a difference to proportion. They look sweet. The backpack which I noticed on second viewing is totally cool, most people wouldn't bother with that. I don't know to much about the different mark armours to comment on historical accuracy, but I salute your attention to detail. Im guessing the chapters you wont be doing judging on the captain are. T son, Space wolves, world eaters (surely he'd have an axe), white scars (no bike) The captain to me looks like he belongs to the ultras becaue of the gladius sword. Which would make me sad. Luna wolves would be awesome to see and you could use the Horus hersery novels for a captains name; being historically accurate and all. Whatever you dokeep up the good work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1737979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Thanks mate, I appreciate the compliments! :) The Captain is going to be Terran so the cultural differences won't matter so much, the gladius is supposed to be a throw back to whatever Regiment he belonged to before they became a Legion. They won't be Word Bearers or Thousand Sons though, mainly because they are so culturally influenced by their homeworlds that they have their own unique look. I started World Eaters a couple of years back but gave up so it'll probably be something different this time around. I'm tempted to go the White Scars route or maybe even revisit the Night Lords, both armies have fairly unique natives that characterise the look of them so I can include a few of those in the mix. The bit I'm really interested in as far as the Great Crusade armies are concerned is the cultural intregration. I'd guess that the original regiments were pretty uniform in organisation and it was only after they became Legions proper and were re-united with their Primarchs that the cultural differences began to emerge. So for example the Space Wolves were probably just a Terran force like the others with the exception of their elongated cannine teeth and it was only after they were re-united with Russ and started recruited from Fenris that the Nordic influences became apparent. Up untill that point they were a Terran Regiment and probably had their own traditions and Terran cultural influences. I've just started on the backpacks but they will be as close to what a true Maximus pack should look like as possible. It's one of the first edition metal versions that I'm recreating based on the image of a Mk IV suit in the new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Ah a terran, makes sense, I was thrown off by you saying end of the G. Crusade, is he gonna be like Iacton Qzure and get ignored by everyone else, j/k. (he's actually my favourite character from those horus books). I personally quite like the idea of having cultural differences between units or individuals or whoever, makes the army feel more alive very cool. Depending on the legion they could be large differences. The legion you choose will be a lucky one. Next time you add some updates etc can you chuck in a pick of one of these backpacks, I'd like to see it. ++Edit can't remember if I said it, but the bolters are looking spiffy as well really tie into the whole prehersery feel (more likely to be notice then the back packs aswell.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Iacton Qzure is a bit of an enigma to me. I don't understand how Garro can be from the same time period and not be as distant or come to think of it why isn't Dante being spoon fed seeing as he's over a thousand years old? The angle I think I'll have to go with the Captain is that he was recruited into the regiment towards the end of the Unification War or at the very begining of the Great Crusade when the Astartes first left Terra. I'm still working on the backpacks at the moment but concentrating mainly on getting the bodies together. I'll put together the first ten, hacking bits off and doing rough conversions before going back over them as a squad to do the greenstuff work. As soon as I have a picture of the pack completed I'll post a shot of it. ^_^ Just a brief update, got the second marine assembled from a AoBR marine and am working on getting the other eight up to the basic level so I can start cleaning them up and doing the greenstuff work. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture017-4.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
major buzzmore Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 All looking goo so far Doghouse, good work on the Bolters & Back Packs. Still I cannot believe you are starting another army !!! (your worse than me!), but I am looking fiorward to watching it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Knight Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Doghouse how do you make the pre-heresy upper torso armor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Doghouse how do you make the pre-heresy upper torso armor? They're these Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Love your work, the same thing I am working on(or trying to anyway) since I love pre-heresy, I really feel it is the best + most interesting time period in 40K, of course as specially as marines are concerned.. I agree with you about Iacton Qruze, I think he was more of a plot device than a realistic portrayal of what a space marine of his age + standing should be, in all honesty I wasnt too happy with it, infact, I was UNHAPPY. But I digress, as with all your work, can't wait to see more! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Cheers guys! :) major buzzmore: Yeah, I might actually finish an army one day. :lol: These guys are just something I'm playing around with whilst I put my Orks together. It's an itch that needs to be scratched and not going to be a full army to begin with. It'll be a Captain, a tactical and a Predator at first. Brother-chaplain Astador: Totally agree with you there mate. Pre-Heresy is a fantastic opportunity for converters like myself and has an extremely rich background of heroes and villains to draw from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorns Padawan Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Wowzers Doghouse! These look real sweet! Is there no limits to your idesas?!!?!?!?!!! Will defo be keeping tabs on this thread mate, looking forward to seeing which army you go for. NightLords would be cool to do, you pulled them off well last time! Gotta say, you can't beat Pre-Heresy!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1738622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Great models as always Doghouse. Re the question over Qruze versus Garro and age. It's crucial to remember that unlike our present existence on a single planet, marines spend a lot of time travelling through both realspace and the warp. The effects of warp travel vagaries and relativistic time dilation in realspace mean that the time experienced by individual marines between two Terran dates can vary significantly. I think that when Garro and Qruze talk, Garro says something about accounting for all of the time he has spent in stasis whilst in transit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1740924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Windir Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Well, could Qruze been inducted at an older age then Garro? Also would there recuiting ages been later because this was new tech? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1741039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Lucas Raziel Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 may seem a bit weird, but how about making The Luna Wolves before they went chaotic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149617-building-a-historically-accurate-great-crusade-force/#findComment-1741152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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