Yogi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I was reading the thread on Angron having rules and I was wondering, why does everyone think the Primarchs are so great that they can kill a titan with a couple of harsh words and a death stare? It's all totally propaganda. Primarch are just super space marines. They also happen to be protaginst in every story they appear in. In other words they are not that good. Just cause some story says they appear godlike, it is just to make them sound important. The emperor was nearly killed by a warboss, horus helped him kill it. Do you see the level the primarchs were on.. Maybe 2 or 3 levels higher then a chapter master. Daemon Prince Angron was killed by a Grey knight! And he had 12 blood thristers helping.. honestly. A primarch didn't win cause he was jesus with a bolter, he won battles because he had surprise and 10k+ fanatical 'Roid Monkeys backin' him up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Thank god someone actually agrees with me! I've always been annoyed how everyone thinks the primarchs were virtual gods. One of them got beat up by a bloodthirster for gods sake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contaminus Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Daemon Prince Angron was killed by a Grey knight! And he had 12 blood thristers helping.. honestly. He was BANISHED (not killed) by a force of 100 Grey Knights and if I remember correctly, killed 99 of them for trying The emperor was nearly killed by a warboss, horus helped him kill it. Do you see the level the primarchs were on.. Maybe 2 or 3 levels higher then a chapter master. Are you trying to imply the Emperor was weak? It's by his will alone that the entire Imperium isn't destroyed by chaos. Sanguinius single handedly killed one of the most powerful Bloodthirsters active at the time after fighting in a siege for days/weeks. The Primarchs are/were the 20 most powerful humans (other than the Emperor himself) ever to have lived. Vulkan, Primarch of the Salamanders, single-handedly killed 100 dark eldar raiders at the age of four, armed only with a pair of blacksmith's hammers and he wasn't regarded as the most powerful of the primarchs. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 banished killed you know what I mean. The emperor is weak.. theres no way he'd be as good as your thinking. A blood thrister wow! Good for vulkan, however once again thats his legend i.e propaganda. He can hardly die before the emperor finds him can he. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Sanguinius got beat up by the bloodthirster, then came back for a rematch and just about won, I'd hardly call that amazing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I don't think that Primarchs were god-like to be fair. Most of them are now dead or long since missing so they were definately mortal beings. I agree though that as mortals they were vulnerable to death but more importantly they were created to be generals. They were exceptional by even the standards of the Astartes but most of the stories are propoganda with tales of them slaying mighty beasts coming from their homeworlds. To these people they would have seemed like gods and it's only right that such stories would have become exaggerated over time. I don't think that the Emperor was weak though. At his zenith he was an incredibly powerful individual but again was subject to the rules of the mortal world. He was probably a great warrior as well as leader judging by what he acheived during the Unification war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The Imperium thrives BECAUSE of the Emperors psychic power. It was CREATED because of his ability to command, tactical genius, excellent diplomacy and martial prowess. The most powerful living fighting force ever created roam the galaxy in the defense of humanity, solely because of his vision. He is practically, single handedly, no not practically, IS single handedly standing in the way of the chaos gods taking over the universe. Over the many MILLIONS of battles he must have fought, I think he can be allowed ONE slip up against an Ork Warboss, who, MUST have been the mother-of-all-warbosses. The emperor is not nearly weak if Horus, embued with demonic power from the warp, WHILE the Emperor was holding back during the fighting because of his love for his favourite son, could STILL not defeat him, Horus, who easily, mercilessly cast aside his favourite brothers lifeless corpse fell to the Emperors hand, then no, I would not say the Emp. is weak. I think the primarchs can be summed up in one sentance, from the point of view of Saul Tarviz. 'It is said that a space marine knows no fear....but when Angron charged, he ran' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Admiral Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The bloodthirster which fought Sanguinius, Ka'banda, was powerful enough to kill 500 Blood Angels in one "flash across the battlefield" - I think this is more than your average 40K bloodthirster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I think the primarchs can be summed up in one sentance, from the point of view of Saul Tarviz. 'It is said that a space marine knows no fear....but when Angron charged, he ran' Of course he ran away, he was told over and over for his entire life that Angron was effectively a god, and no-one said they weren't powerful, just that they aren't as powerful as everyone seems to think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Leman Russ could drink an oceans worth of beer, burp so loud you can hear it on terra and kill 10,000 marines with one swing... hurr! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I think the primarchs can be summed up in one sentance, from the point of view of Saul Tarviz. 'It is said that a space marine knows no fear....but when Angron charged, he ran' Of course he ran away, he was told over and over for his entire life that Angron was effectively a god, and no-one said they weren't powerful, just that they aren't as powerful as everyone seems to think. Not really, he ran away because Angron was insanely Bloodthirsty, massive, and furious, to stand against him is to die, he was probably the best of all the primarchs in hand-to-hand combat also. But that isnt the point, the space marines SAW the primarchs in action themsevles, first hand. Theres no 'rumor' or 'propaganda' in their eyes because they were there first hand. Tarviz had seen Angron fight before and was terrified by the prospect of facing him, this is why he ran.. I think you have become so used to the 40k world you can't imagine how powerful you need to be, to single-handedly kill hundreds of SUPER-HUMANS, or how much battle takes out of you. Or how impossible it would be for a normal man to defeat a bloodthirster etc etc etc.. Be that as it may, you seeemd to miss out the rest of my post.. I really think you are just trolling to troll.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angels_Blade Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The Primarchs were immense. All of them. No arguements. No Question. They were made of win! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I really think you are just trolling to troll.. Oh, so disagreeing is trolling? Well I promise I'll never make that mistake again. Have fun deluding yourself on how powerful the primarchs are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSarge Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 banished killed you know what I mean. The emperor is weak.. theres no way he'd be as good as your thinking. A blood thrister wow! Good for vulkan, however once again thats his legend i.e propaganda. He can hardly die before the emperor finds him can he. It almost appears that you're trolling the B&C? The "Emperor is weak" is laughable statement that would be assumed to be made from the mouth of a heretic. Regardless of your alignment with Chaos, the Emperor was so powerful he could easily kill with a stare. The Chaos gods fear the Emperor, if the Emperor is weak than Im your mothers uncle. Blood Thirsters could kill you or me, and our entire city blocks and then some, they are hardly un-impressive daemons. A super human like an Astartes stands no match against such a daemon, it takes a truly skilled warrior to defeat it. Of course the stories told about the Primarchs have grown into legend and each story has been told countless times by various people of the Imperium. Some exagerrate the whole thing, like a peasant or guardsmen telling a tale. While a person like a scholar would simply want to know FACT over fiction, but we are dealing with Science Fiction that has fiction within it. BTW it is 10,000 "roid primates". Human biengs are not MONKIES! We are primates, please do not insult me or others as a "monkey. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Admiral Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 From what fluff I’ve seen, I think that the primarchs are that great. Just my opinion :) Just to go back to my beloved Sanguinius again - Take a marine's profile Get 500 of them Get something which can kill 500 marines in one go <- even with 10s all the way along the stat line this couldn't be done And Sanguinius can not only beat it, but break it's back in two (admittedly not without getting his legs crushed and generally thrown around) And then he goes on to fight the Warmaster, one of greatest warriors the galaxy has seen (and, yes, dies) That's using the fluff, and I take your point that the fluff could be biased - but if you start saying the fluff is propaganda, then where do you stop? Are marines really that tall, or is it just legend? Can they really spit poison? etc etc.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I really think you are just trolling to troll.. Oh, so disagreeing is trolling? Well I promise I'll never make that mistake again. Have fun deluding yourself on how powerful the primarchs are. :) Wasn't talking to you buddy, either way no harm done Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Brother Sargent Tiberius- Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I was reading the thread on Angron having rules and I was wondering, why does everyone think the Primarchs are so great that they can kill a titan with a couple of harsh words and a death stare? It's all totally propaganda. Primarch are just super space marines. They also happen to be protaginst in every story they appear in. In other words they are not that good. Just cause some story says they appear godlike, it is just to make them sound important. The emperor was nearly killed by a warboss, horus helped him kill it. Do you see the level the primarchs were on.. Maybe 2 or 3 levels higher then a chapter master. Daemon Prince Angron was killed by a Grey knight! And he had 12 blood thristers helping.. honestly. A primarch didn't win cause he was jesus with a bolter, he won battles because he had surprise and 10k+ fanatical 'Roid Monkeys backin' him up. HERETIC!!!! BURN THE TRAITOR!!! HE SPEAKS ILL OF THE EMPEROR AND HOLY SANGUINIUS! DESTROY THE HERETIC! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 What's that? Do I hear a melta charging? The emperor was nearly killed by a warboss, horus helped him kill it. Yeah... except back in the days of the Crusade Ork Warbosses could get as big as tanks. Daemon Prince Angron was killed by a Grey knight! And he had 12 blood thristers helping.. honestly. One Grey Knight? Read your fluff again. Thank god someone actually agrees with me! I've always been annoyed how everyone thinks the primarchs were virtual gods. One of them got beat up by a bloodthirster for gods sake. Uh... the Bloodthirster, actually. And even if it wasn't, I think you may be underestimating a Bloodthirster. The emperor is weak.. theres no way he'd be as good as your thinking. Yeah... no way in 25 years of established background fluff from a gods-eye point of view he could be that good... A blood thrister wow! Yeah! I mean, a Bloodthirster is nothing! It's a snap, so easy a Guardsman could do it! ... Honesty. Try a little harder. I really think you are just trolling to troll.. Yeah. After this quote: Have fun deluding yourself I might have to agree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1738867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massaen Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I think you need to find the line between fluff and game balance. Fluff wise the the eldar phoenix lords are at least the equal of the primarchs yet we have them easily killable in a standard game of 40k for the sake of balance. Looking furthur at the fluff you have fulgrim barley defeating the avatar of Ulthwé, so that puts fulgrim at approx chaos daemon prince stats fpr balanced 40k... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1739332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Admiral Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Yeah I realised this today - that we are looking at an entirely new 'movie' area. We have 'movie' marines and game marines, but all of the primarch's we have ever seen are the 'movie' side of them. From a gamers point of view, the idea that the primarch could do some of the things it says in the fluff is ridiculous. But they couldn't do that if they were translated (which would be a great shame) to gaming level. They would have the same jump as between the movie marine and the game marine - i.e. they would be a powerful chapter master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1739715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 What Admiral said. The thing is, Primarchs have rules in game so that they can die, so they aren't an "I Win" button. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1740612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Bloodthirsters are a lot more powerful than the game portrays them. A strong one can wipe out thousands of soldiers and dozens of tanks and marines all by themselves and the blood thirsters leading the daemons in the heresy would have been the stronger ones that rarely leave the warp and are a lot stronger than normal thristers. Being as strong as or stronger than one is a great feat. Of course primarchs aren't as strong as titans, titans are freaking walking battleships. But the emperor could use his psychic powers to destroy a titan or even a city. And most primarchs could find a way to bust into a Titan and destroy its crew (hell an ork mek on a bike did it). And yeah orks would have been bigger then since their populations didn't gt culled as often. If i remember correctly ghazkull's the size of a dreadnought so large ork warlord from a system with high population density of orks could get pretty darn big. Add a power klaw and a few dozen nobz and that's a bit of a challenge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1740638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fury_of_Fenris Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 i reckon that the primarchs wouldve been sick arse fighters but then again it would be hard to put them into rules without insanely overpowering them. games workshop dont do anything realisticall like look at strength 4 bolter the describe it as 85 calibre explosive rounds ill tell u this know 50 calibre rounds punch through tanks and 85 no matter how strong would even stand a chance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1740671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liltom Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Sanguinius alone held the gate at terra against the chaos legions. They now employ 10,000 adeptus custodes to do the same job. Considering a run of the mill custodes can slap about a chapter master with little effort, I think that is pretty good. Sure, the emperor got in some trouble with a warboss amongst the hundreds of thousands of orks he turned to a fine paste, and sanguinius got injured by an insanely overpowered blood thirster, but the are mere blips. Other than these two instances, I think every primarch was vastly powerful. The story of vulkan verses the raiders is an excellent example. You say all we have on the primarchs are mere stories, but that is all 40k is and can ever be. What more information is there on anything in the warhammer 40k universe? I vote this is silly trolling, trying to get people angry for no reason other than to get them angry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1740688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 There´s no actual reason to get angry about something that´s fiction in its very essence, and that´s what make the 40K universe so interesting; GW made a huge mistake giving stats to Angron, I really think nothing like a Primarch should ever be used on a tabletop, but we see the same problem with Space Marines, Daemon Princes, and so on always fluff vs game. This said, Primarch aren´t that great in the game, but are legends in the fluff, and I like to think about them as demi-gods able to perform incredible things. I´ll never meet one of them for a beer (well, perhaps Russ), so who the hell cares? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/#findComment-1740847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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