Primarchs ain't so great.

[Favoured of the Emperor]

The primarchs ARE great in the fluff. Who else would have have the power to lead 10000+ marines into battle? If the primarchs were as weak as you say, then why did the Emperor create them? Why would Space Marines follow them? Why would marines be paralysed with amazement and fear at the sight of one?

 

Oh, and the Emperor is weak is he? So every weak person in the 40k universe has the power to let people travel thorugh the warp, whilst being half dead and incarcerated on a faulty throne? I'd like to see someone else try that.

 

The primarchs weren't weak at all. If they were so weak, why would a load of space marines go mental if one fell over!? Just rthink about that.

 

FOE

 

Edit-- seeing a primarch is described as a wonder, something you can ever get bored of.

[Skirax]

The Imperium thrives BECAUSE of the Emperors psychic power.

 

This is technically true and not true, the emperor fights off the powerful gods of Chaos in his own way, sitting on the golden throne with the psychic side of him in the warp along with the souls of every dead space marine, grey knight and so on. but also, it is because of his fighting in the immaterium that the space marines are so hard pressed from loadsa aliens. the emperor is immortal, halleluha, but if he is almighty, why dont he just heel himself and take every space marine on a massive bloody campiagn, recreating the imperium probably wiping out a few races as he goes?

 

back to ur main question, i dont think primarchs are/were godlike, roboute guilliman has scratch marks onn his neck and he is in cryo-genic stasis, for crying out loud! If the primarchs were like gods, they would know right from wrong and so horus would never have turned. Ferrus Manus was killed in the dropsite massacre (correct me if im wrong) and if he was a god, he probably woulda won it himself! (without any traitor primarchs in the battle)

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

'If they were gods they would know right from wrong and Horus would never have turned'?

 

That does assume that 'gods' are of the same moral stance as the majority of 'civilised' people. And even if they were, there are always those who go against the majority for selfish reasons (gain, self-aggrindisement, etc), so why wouldn't a god, especially a man-made one?

Good people do bad things, just look at what so-called religious people do to each other; they talk about forgiveness and mercy and loving everybody, but seem to have a thing for burning people who don't fit in (i'm njot talking about any particular religion, just what the religious impulse in general seems to make people-in-general do).

There seems to be a confusion about what makes a 'god'. Is it physical power? Mental strength? Moral strength? Psychic power? If it is any of these then does the power have to be on a galactic-level, or just greater than other peoples'? We could quite easily label the greatest adepts in the varied fields of human endeavour as gods, because they can do things that nobody else can (Ussain Bolt, anybody?!).

 

But this is the 40k universe, and gods are ten-a-penny and of a bewildering variety of motives and drives. The Primarchs would be god-like when compared to any human in that universe, and even against most aliens. They are as great, or as feeble, as we say they are. From the fluff as written (FAW?) they are sooper-dooper-pooper beings who can leap tall buildings with a single breath and stop a speeding bullet with a single bound. But it could also be just propaganda, that is the beauty of the 40k 'verse. Wouldn't see the point of it being propaganda, though. What would be the point? Maybe GW want to make the other game-systems think that their super-characters are made of fail and so give up. That's it! It's a conspiracy!

 

GFP :yes:

[Sons of Horus]

look, the Primarchs are definitely mortal because they CAN die but they are very very much god-like. They are the 20 strongest humans to ever live.

 

Fulgrim killed an avatar with his bare hands. avatars are supposedly fragments of a god you know :yes: and this is no propaganda because he was seen doing so in Fulgrim the novel.

 

Sanguinius was way tired from fighting (singlehandedly defending the eternity gate) when one of the mightiest thirsters challenged him and he still broke its back over his knee just so you know thirsters are the avatars of a god as well, although not pieces of the god they were still created from its essence.

 

the Lion survived on a death world since he was a child!

 

oh and of course, Horus didn't help the emp kill the warboss, he singlehandedly killed it he SAVED the emperor's life from the largest and strongest ork to ever live!! Urrlak Urruk was winning hands down until Horus killed him (without any help whatsoever).!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

the emperor is helping power-up the astronomican which of course is a MASSIVE psychic beacon.!

 

oh and i agree that GW should never have made any rules for angron because any Primarch doesn't belong on the table top!!! they are simply far too legendary and powerful to have any fair rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Just say that Angron's stats are immediately post-having his butt kicked (barely) by the Grey Knights. :lol:

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

but if he is almighty, why dont he just heel himself and take every space marine on a massive bloody campiagn, recreating the imperium probably wiping out a few races as he goes?

 

Who said he was almighty, as in omnipotent? He's just hella, hella, hella powerful. That's right, three hellas.

 

back to ur main question, i dont think primarchs are/were godlike, roboute guilliman has scratch marks onn his neck and he is in cryo-genic stasis, for crying out loud! If the primarchs were like gods, they would know right from wrong and so horus would never have turned. Ferrus Manus was killed in the dropsite massacre (correct me if im wrong) and if he was a god, he probably woulda won it himself! (without any traitor primarchs in the battle)

 

Godlike is not literal. Do not take descriptive metaphor so far.

 

Fulgrim killed an avatar with his bare hands.

 

Wasn't it a Wraithlord?

 

Just say that Angron's stats are immediately post-having his butt kicked (barely) by the Grey Knights. -_-

 

Indeed. He's tired and wants a nap. Why you bugging him? *Angron yawns sleepily, almost cute if it wasn't for the daemon-ness-thing*

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, Fulgrim killed an Avatar. Punched clean through it's burning metal head.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

So Calgar's as good as a Primarch. Dammit. ;) :P

 

Thanks, I'll have to reread that part of Fulgrim.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, Calgar was fighting for his life where as Fulgrim won pretty easily un-armed! Calgar's weapons is that of a Primarch, Fulgrim used his fists...

 

As for the Angron thing, if you have read the story in WD of the final battle we can see that Angron was winning easily and only lost because of an anti-daemon attack by the whole of the surviving Grey Knights.

 

And let's not forget that the warp storm surrounding Armagedon was disappating thus weakening all daemons, and although a Primarch Angron is now a daemon...

 

The Primarchs are powerful. Russ leapt out of a sky craper onto a Warlord Titan and destroyed it! The Ork Warboss was the most powerful ever (think bigger than Ghazghull, and he has a 2+ invulnerable save for a turn!) and was fighting toe to toe with the Emperor. Horus was stunned in a plasma blast. That is stunned, not wounded. Saguninnious went 2 rounds with the most powerful Bloodthirster I have ever heard of (have you seen it's FW stats?!) and broke it's back over his knee in the second round!

 

I could go on, but I think I have illustrated my point enough. All the fluff points to the Primarchs to being a level above present day 40K, whether you like it or not. I can understand not liking fluff like that (super man...), but that doesn't change it! Think of it this way, 100 Space Marines can fight a war on a whole planet, so what do you think a Primarch, the worth of over 100 Space Marines, can do?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

to be fair to Guilliman, HE fought Fulgrim, not Calgar, and Fulgrim was armed. Debate is up on what he was armed with, as the old IA articles only said a poisoned blade, but the HH books detail Horus giving the anathame to Fulgrim. remember, the anathame nearly killed Horus with a shoulder wound, only the gods of chaos kept him alive.

 

space wolf defending the ultras, whatta day.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Captain Idaho]

space wolf defending the ultras, whatta day.

 

wolf lord kieran

 

It's a sad day indeed when it comes to that eh bud! :lol:

 

Seriously though, Fulgrim was a Daemon Primarch, and although he mortally wounded Guilliman with a warp fuelled poison blade, he was banished from the field of battle along with the Emperor's Children, leaving the Ultramarines alone and technically victorious.

[Hellios]

People Disagree with me but I think from the physical realm (AKA NOT THE WARP!!) only things like the C'tan are more powerful than the Primarchs (although vulnerable to those with psychic gifts?) with the mightiest warriors and leaders of other races being the few who can even prove any kind of match (still probably weaker.) such as tank sized Orks and Eldar Phoenix Lords that have been mentioned already.

 

He didn't really kill the avatar :lol: it will reform in the craftworlds heart and once the sacrifice is made he will rise again and so on and so forth, also when I read it... I was under the idea that the avatar was on top in the fight and that only because he was more interested in a slanneshii daemon weapon and let himself get distracted by it :<. However punching in an avatars head with your bare hands is impressive.

 

I think he killed the wraithlord with the sword? or did he do that with his bare hands don't remember that now XD

[Askari]

Fulgrim killed a wraithlord and an Avatar with his bare hands after fighting off several squads of aspect warriors. And he didn't have the anathema when he fought Guilliman, he was armed with 4 swords covered in a daemonic poison (by this time he had the lower body of a snake and 4 arms as a result of his ascent to daemonhood)

 

Does anyone know what happened to the anathema. I've heard people say Fulgrim gave it to Lucius but he really only gave Lucius the daemon weapon that used to contain the daemon that possessed Fulgrim. So where's the anathema?

[Captain Idaho]

Probably used as the base poison for each of Daemon-Fulgrim's swords. Incidently, didn't he have 6 arms? Can't remember! Either way, the fact Guilliman went toe to toe with the giant snake like, multi-armed Primarch and only suffered a single wound and then banished him, is pretty damn hard...

[Sons of Horus]

no, Fulgrim does in fact only have 4 arms.

 

yes, Fulgrim killed and avatar with his bare fists and a wraithlord too (also bare fists).

 

the anathema is probably gone along with all those other awesome pre-heresy weapons like Gorefather and Brazentooth ^_^

 

BTW where does it say that russ busted a Warlord? :lol:

[SeverusDecker]

Don't quote me on this but if I remeber correctly Horus destroyed the silver (slannesh) sword and gave Fulgrim the anathame. I remeber reading something like that in the Fulgrim Book

[Badaboom]

I recently finished the Fulgrim novel and there´s nothing about Horus breaking the Laeran blade, it just states that the Anatheme was indeed ginven to Fulgrim and that Ferrus Manus broke Fulgrim´s blade barehanded.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The three swords mentioned as being owned in Fulgrim are the Fireblade, the Anatheme, and the Laeran Sword. Ferrus snaps the Fireblade, and subsequently reforges it for himself, and the Laeran sword gets... changed, at the end, but it remains in one piece.

[Captain Idaho]

BTW where does it say that russ busted a Warlord? <_<

 

Indeed it is a mighty feat! It was a White Dwarf I read it (can't remember which one, sorry) that detailed the Lion and Wolf together making their way to Terra. Interesting couple of battles mentioned there, plenty of scope for novels to be based upon them.

[Captain Kael]

One of them got beat up by a bloodthirster for gods sake.

 

That bloodthirster was the king of all bloodthirsters. Do you know how hard it is to kill one bloodthirster? Tons of marines and tanks and big guns. Do you know what it takes to defeat the king of all bloodthirsters? 10000 X more than what I previouisly stated. Now imagine a man breaking the things back and defeating it single handedly. Yeah only primarchs can do that. And Sanguinus was the IMHO the best primarch ever because he defended the palace single handedly, he took out the king of all bloodthirsters, and he fought Horus, knowing that he was to die, even then he made a chink in Horus' armour which allowed the Emperor to beat Horus. (i know its a run-on)

 

If they were gods they would know right from wrong and Horus would never have turned

 

Not really. A prime example are the Greek gods. They were just like humans with their emotions. The only thing that set them apart was that they were immortal and immensely powerful.

 

Primarchs are humans and they are Astartes which means they can live for ever but they never get to because they die in battle. (Loken said that in Horus Rising or maybe it was Tarvits (spelled name wrong))

 

I think this thread is just to discuss the topic and it has people's opinions in it. This does not mean they are trolling but it also does not mean that people get angry over these things. The fluff is how you interpret it. Its just opinions guys.

 

Captain Kael :D

[Yogi]

Wow it's like I challenged your religion! j/k I made this thread cause I've never seen anyone else say/write it.

 

Getting accused of trolling is sad. Because I challenged the majority view I'm a troll? Don't take everything so seriously.

 

I think the major difference between the 'nay-sayer squad' (me and that other poster) and the 'Primarch is the Win brigade' is what we look at for conformation.

 

Personally I look towards the 40k game/rules as the more realistic view of the 40k universe. To me a marine only has a 3+sv not impenetrable armour. Therefore when I look at the primarchs I scale them back. Just as a marine goes from superkiller, to guy with 3+sv. Primarchs go from unkillable god of battle to super awesome chapter master.

 

Yeah... except back in the days of the Crusade Ork Warbosses could get as big as tanks.

 

Where is this reference, cause I'm curious.

 

Yeah! I mean, a Bloodthirster is nothing! It's a snap, so easy a Guardsman could do it!

 

That's right yeah, thats totally what I said. gg.

[Captain Idaho]

That bloodthirster was the king of all bloodthirsters. Do you know how hard it is to kill one bloodthirster? Tons of marines and tanks and big guns. Do you know what it takes to defeat the king of all bloodthirsters? 10000 X more than what I previouisly stated. Now imagine a man breaking the things back and defeating it single handedly. Yeah only primarchs can do that. And Sanguinus was the IMHO the best primarch ever because he defended the palace single handedly, he took out the king of all bloodthirsters, and he fought Horus, knowing that he was to die, even then he made a chink in Horus' armour which allowed the Emperor to beat Horus. (i know its a run-on)

 

I wouldn't say he was the absolute best at everything, but he is defintely my favourite this side of Guilliman. I do think he should have been Warmaster over Horus, but hey, that's hindsight for you!

 

Incidently, you have exaggerated some of your facts there. He never defended the Imperial Palace single handed, there were 3 Legions, 2 Primarchs and lord knows how many Imperial army units with him, not to mention other Imperial factions (sisters of silence, Titans etc). He did hold the gate alone to allow his men to get back inside, which just shows us the humility of the bloke. That was when the Bloodthirster jumped on him. After their battle where he crippled the Bloodthirster, he flung it's body back into the hoard and the gate was shut.

 

Plus he's a damned Angel!

[Aqatone]

Personally I look towards the 40k game/rules as the more realistic view of the 40k universe.

 

And with that idea in mind, it will obviously cause problems. I'm sure you know as to why the rules are like that in the first place so I won't go into it. The fluff is the correct representation of the power and might of the Primarchs and Legions. Applying the game rules to the stories in the fluff is not the way to because it won't work that way. They are extremely powerful demi-gods with super human warriors at their command, having that on a tabletop against your friend who plays Orks is going to end in seconds. And I notice the word realistic, that is a hard word to apply to the 40k universe!

[Yogi]

The fluff is the correct representation of the power and might of the Primarchs and Legions.

 

So I guess Calgar is the best and everyone wants to be an ultramarine, lets not start on ultra honor guard. I don't think people accept that as fact. Even though a fanboy wrote it it's still fluff, more legit then black library as it's in a codex. Would you defend that relentlessly. I think not. If you would then I am impressed.

 

EDIT: When I say realistic I mean less biased towards the imperium.

 

Edit: spelling

[Captain Idaho]

It doesn't say anywhere that Calgar is the best. It tells us in the new Codex that he is supremely powerful, one of the most powerful heros in the Imperium. Does this mean that the next Codex for SWs will have a Logan Grimnar who is a sissy? Hell no, I bet he will be a beast!

 

Then there is Dante, when he get's a new entry in a new Codex I bet you will see him able to carve through hoards of troops just like Khârn the Betrayer.

 

Does it say in the fluff that everyone wants to be an Ultramarine? No, it says that they are the epitome that Guilliman intended, and that which all Codex Chapters aspire to. You are clearly taking that throw away comment to literally and out of context.

 

Honour Guard? The Ultramarines, as one of the first founding Chapters (like it states in the Codex), can muster nearer 30 Honour Guard. The Honour Guard entry is refering to all Honour Guard, with the Ultramarines given as an example. Don't get your problem here?

 

Anyway, as for fluff being more realistic in game, that doesn't work because the fluff we have contradicts the game capabilities of so many units. Greater Daemons, for example, are described as being able to defeat entire armies. Eldar Farseers can caste their powers to destroy entire armies with the power of the warp. Orks can rip a human limb from limb. But we have Bloodthirsters with 4 wounds that are scared of the guns of a Tau army, Eldar psychic powers that help units and can kill like 1 model a turn, Orks are strength 3.

 

The same goes for Space Marines and their Primarchs. In game they are the same toughness as Orks, a Tau Fire Warriror can wound a Space Marine Captain (happened to me in the GT!) and we have a much more balanced game.