Primarchs ain't so great.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Captain Idaho Posted Today, 06:32 PM

Does it say in the fluff that everyone wants to be an Ultramarine? No, it says that they are the epitome that Guilliman intended, and that which all Codex Chapters aspire to. You are clearly taking that throw away comment to literally and out of context.

 

*Gloomily* You haven't read the author's WD interview have you? It goes " . . . the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations (Blood Angels) or stolid stubbornness (Space Wolves and Dark Angels), all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Thats where the idea that "everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" as fluff comes from. *Sigh* :)

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Personally I look towards the 40k game/rules as the more realistic view of the 40k universe. To me a marine only has a 3+sv not impenetrable armour. Therefore when I look at the primarchs I scale them back. Just as a marine goes from superkiller, to guy with 3+sv. Primarchs go from unkillable god of battle to super awesome chapter master.

 

Except the rules are deliberately toned down from the fluff to make a playable game. It might seem more realistic to you for Marines not to be virtually unstoppable superhumans in tank armor, for example (I could go into alien examples but for the sake of brevity...) but in light of the fluff we're given, it is your view that is unrealistic. Gameplay=/=fluff.

 

Yeah... except back in the days of the Crusade Ork Warbosses could get as big as tanks.

 

Where is this reference, cause I'm curious.

 

It's something I've heard on forums, and I don't recall what sources they cite. I can't own every 40k book ever, you know.

 

Yeah! I mean, a Bloodthirster is nothing! It's a snap, so easy a Guardsman could do it!

 

That's right yeah, thats totally what I said. gg.

 

Actually, here's what you said:

 

A blood thrister wow!

 

Which heavily implies, in context, that a Bloodthirster is no big deal.... uh, yeah.

[Aqatone]

The fluff is the correct representation of the power and might of the Primarchs and Legions.

 

So I guess Calgar is the best and everyone wants to be an ultramarine, lets not start on ultra honor guard. I don't think people accept that as fact. Even though a fanboy wrote it it's still fluff, more legit then black library as it's in a codex. Would you defend that relentlessly. I think not. If you would then I am impressed.

 

EDIT: When I say realistic I mean less biased towards the imperium.

 

Edit: spelling

 

You seem to be making things up as you go, which I see is the problem here. Who said Calgar is the best? Calgar is a regular space marine, minus a lot of limbs. He just happens to be an extremely experienced space marine in charge of an extremely experienced Legion that does a damn good job at what it does. but many people make cry faces at them because they are the poster boys of 40k. So what. I'm not here to defend anything, however.

 

Also I wouldn't particularly say there is bias towards the Imperium. There's as much going on with all the races. The Imperium just happens to be one of the more wide spread of them so there's more to write about them. Plus I find it more interested to read about them as it is after all one of the primary focus's of the game.

 

All I can suggest to you is if you wish for a more realistic portrayal of a universe with no demi gods and super human soldiers then try regular Warhammer.

[Captain Idaho]

Captain Idaho Posted Today, 06:32 PM

Does it say in the fluff that everyone wants to be an Ultramarine? No, it says that they are the epitome that Guilliman intended, and that which all Codex Chapters aspire to. You are clearly taking that throw away comment to literally and out of context.

 

*Gloomily* You haven't read the author's WD interview have you? It goes " . . . the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations (Blood Angels) or stolid stubbornness (Space Wolves and Dark Angels), all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Thats where the idea that "everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" as fluff comes from. *Sigh* :)

 

That is not a direct fluff reference though, it is a fluff opinion from a real life interview.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Captain Idaho Posted Today, 07:27 PM

That is not a direct fluff reference though, it is a fluff opinion from a real life interview.

 

Its just as well, really. If that was in the codex all the UM haters out there would have caused a reaction similar to the birth of Slannesh and what that did to the 40k galaxy. ;)

 

Though you're probably right about the other SM variant Codex characters being given similar power upgrades.

[Captain Idaho]

Its just as well, really. If that was in the codex all the UM haters out there would have caused a reaction similar to the birth of Slannesh and what that did to the 40k galaxy.

 

The cynic in my really laughed just then! :lol:

[Captain Kael]

Wow it's like I challenged your religion! j/k I made this thread cause I've never seen anyone else say/write it.

 

No I just really like Sanguinus. :( Sorry if I was a bit over the top.

 

Getting accused of trolling is sad. Because I challenged the majority view I'm a troll? Don't take everything so seriously.

 

I agree. After all its only your opinion.

 

I wouldn't say he was the absolute best at everything, but he is defintely my favourite this side of Guilliman. I do think he should have been Warmaster over Horus, but hey, that's hindsight for you!

 

I didn't say he was the best at everything. Ok maybe I did :P . Yeah I think so too. But the Horus Hersey would have still taken place due to the Word Bearer's 1st Chaplain Ereubus (think thats right)

 

Incidently, you have exaggerated some of your facts there. He never defended the Imperial Palace single handed, there were 3 Legions, 2 Primarchs and lord knows how many Imperial army units with him, not to mention other Imperial factions (sisters of silence, Titans etc). He did hold the gate alone to allow his men to get back inside, which just shows us the humility of the bloke. That was when the Bloodthirster jumped on him. After their battle where he crippled the Bloodthirster, he flung it's body back into the hoard and the gate was shut.

 

Thats what I meant. ;)

 

Plus he's a damned Angel!

 

Agreed. He = BEAST :(

 

Captain Kael :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Getting accused of trolling is sad. Because I challenged the majority view I'm a troll? Don't take everything so seriously."

 

You are trolling and it is quite obvious. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you must have been bored when you started this thread. It's all just make believe so who really cares either way? Right?

 

0b :lol:

[Sons of Horus]

YES!!! go sanguinius!! ^_^ well he single handedly held the gate and even if it was just for a while do you honestly think that a weak person could do such a thing? that's riiiiiiight :P

[Lord_Caerolion]

Personally I look towards the 40k game/rules as the more realistic view of the 40k universe. To me a marine only has a 3+sv not impenetrable armour. Therefore when I look at the primarchs I scale them back. Just as a marine goes from superkiller, to guy with 3+sv. Primarchs go from unkillable god of battle to super awesome chapter master.

 

You should go have a look at the Movie Marine rules. They're the unofficial rules for Marines true to the fluff. Lets just say 10 guys is 1500 points. Basically, rules do not equal fluff.

[Yogi]

Honour Guard? The Ultramarines, as one of the first founding Chapters (like it states in the Codex), can muster nearer 30 Honour Guard. The Honour Guard entry is refering to all Honour Guard, with the Ultramarines given as an example. Don't get your problem here?

 

Here is what is says about honour guard. "Indeed, it is said that each member of the Ultramarines Honour Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetime's service than a whole company of space marines from ANY other chapter, and that each individual has slain more foes then an entire regiment of Imperial Guardsmen."

 

Ok, is that not a bit rich? It's obviously meant to be legend or whatever, but so it plenty of what is said about the Primarchs. Therefore if you consider Primarch fluff to be accurate, then would this not also be the case for honour guard? That one of them Ultra Honour Guards has done more then a whole company!

 

Any way, I have tried to communicate my view.

[Captain Idaho]

But we can assume that the Ultramarines Honour Guard are just an example of a Chapter's Honour Guard performing at their best. It doesn't say that other Chapter's Honour Guard are not able to make similar claims.

 

But yeah, if Honour Guard are that tough, then imagine the power of Captains and above!

 

Incidently, Fluff indicates that the Honour Guard have the tactical acumen and fighting prowess of Captains, but for game play balance they are Space Marines with an extra attack!

 

(just imagine a unit of Captains! Eat that Ork Nobz!)

[Ignatius]

Everyone is forgetting one thing. It wasn't the martial prowess, skill or strength that was a primarchs weakness. It was his human side which was the weak link. Chaos new this and played on it like it was it's favorite toy.

 

I

[Jiri the Corrupted]

Everyone is forgetting one thing. It wasn't the martial prowess, skill or strength that was a primarchs weakness. It was his human side which was the weak link. Chaos new this and played on it like it was it's favorite toy.

 

I

Cunning isn't it? Let us all praise Tzeentch for his scheming and plotting, for without him there'd been no Heresy and no Traitor Legions. And hardly any 40k fluff, the Emperor would have conquered all.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ok, is that not a bit rich? It's obviously meant to be legend or whatever, but so it plenty of what is said about the Primarchs. Therefore if you consider Primarch fluff to be accurate, then would this not also be the case for honour guard? That one of them Ultra Honour Guards has done more then a whole company!

 

Any way, I have tried to communicate my view.

 

Actually, there is a difference. The quote you posted has the important words "it is said". The Horus Heresy books are written from the perspective of an omnipresent narrator, detailing what actually happens! There is no "it is said" when mentioning the acts of the Primarchs in the novels. Remember, context is important.

[Sons of Horus]

i honestly consider the HH series of novels as canon. it is after all the main source of fluff on the Heresy.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

lol@this being a serious debate you bunch of nerds

 

/troll

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLO-

 

...

 

;)

 

I would not say that. Even though I am a die hard Sanguinus fan, I do not think he was the best fighter. He was very skilled at close combat and he wasn't the worst at it but he wasn't the best either. I would have to say either Russ or Angron were the best "fighters". But then again I may be stereotyping the legions. The Space Wolves and World Eater have been known as butchers and such. But all primarchs excelled at close combat. The only way to find out who the best is, is to actually see them fight. Fulgrim killed Ferrus Manus, so apparently Fulgrim was better than him. Sanguinus may have lost to Horus, but that was only due to Horus being at the height of his power from Chaos. To the point, Sanguinus may be the best, but we will never know. I honestly think that he could take down Angron with skill and determination, Angron may be the best, but he doesn't focus and lets his anger lead the way.

 

I think there's some background that states that Sanguinius was the most skilled close quarters fighter, probably some old BA stuff I haven't gotten firsthand (maybe Angels of Death?).

[Marshal Rohr]

The quote from the White Dwarf was the author's personal opinion. Its the same thing as me saying the Dorn is the true heir to the Imperium, they are both opinions but his is published.

[Excalibur]

i honestly consider the HH series of novels as canon. it is after all the main source of fluff on the Heresy.

 

I don't think you can say anything from the BL is canon, it adds to the detail of the universe but the authors don't stick to one version of how things are in 40K. In the SW series King create a totally new unheard of unit and added Ragnar to it and has most rewritten his whole history.

 

As to the main argument, Primarchs not being great...seriously this is being argued. The fluff is blatant about their power and even if you follow the rules argument based on the current edition (go back to 2nd Ed, Chapter Masters, Farseers, Avatars, Bloodthirsters slaughtered armies) the multiplication of power of a Primarch compared to a regular marine would be great. Or better look at a Space Marine in Inquisitor, better then everyone else in the game. While using the rules would give you a more concrete representation, it would not be very accurate and actual more subjective, since you are trying to give a numerical number to an imaginary vision.

[Dyp100]

Hmmm, Primarch can't kill with a stare, but the Emperor can.

 

(Not kidding, I'm sure he could, being a pysker, and pure epic goodness win.)

 

Remember when he went to meet Konrad Curze? People went blind because of his aura...But, I guess he isn't a Primarch.

 

But the Primarchs were insane powerful in fluff, I mean...There not Gods, no, there not the Emperor, but they were some of the most powerful beings in the universe, in there time.

 

One thing, GW has to put done the rules to make them non kill able.

 

 

Also, you guys are talking about UM being the best, and how it says that: I mean, as stated before...Someone has said that it doesn't say others can't achieved this....And then the starter of this thread goes ahead and says it is legend. Its in fluff, in the codex, its not legend, its fluff.

 

And I think BL is pretty much fluffy, especially the HH series...Not legends, fluff.

[Skirax]

I realise this may be taking the thread a whoooooooole steo back but someone made this statement,

the Emperor was so powerful he could easily kill with a stare

I am not disagreeing, more forcing this point on you. In Descent of Angels, Zahariel says that when he was within less than 10 metres of the Emperor, he was thinking this:

 

"...he felt the way he felt when he was staring into the Watchers hood. If he were to find out what was beneath the hood and see there face, he would surely go mad. That is why he did not look into the face of the Emperor."

 

Back to the point: Can you justify that the Primarchs "ain't so great"? Because many here have put across many valid reasons that Primarchs are great. Think about this, Fulgrim, who was described as a demi-god, killed an Avatar of Khaine. Now, I know for certian that an Avatar is a real, full god. If a demi-god can take down a real god, then yeah, they ARE so great.

[Swords of Hatred]

wouldn't the best primarchs be the ones that are still alive?

[Tokunator]

Well, most of the alive ones are also daemons, so they would probably beat the living daylights out of the non-daemonic ones. And whether you count Lion'El Jonson as alive or not is debatable,

 

Anyway and back to the topic:

 

Gamewise, the primarchs (or primarch, as only Angron has 40k rules) are weak or on Greater Daemon level only, but then again, what is better that a Greater Daemon? I can only think of the C'Tan at the moment or maybe a Carnifex with lots of biomorphs, but that's it. I am with the majority vote here and say that it is game balance. If a primarch killed Titans, Avatars etc. like they do in the novels, they would not be balanced, even for Apocalypse.

 

Fluffwise, they took on the biggest and baddest things in the universe (Greater Daemons, Titans, a Kraken, whole armies) and made it out alive, so I'd say, yes, they are the best.

[shadelance]

Captain Idaho Posted Today, 06:32 PM

Does it say in the fluff that everyone wants to be an Ultramarine? No, it says that they are the epitome that Guilliman intended, and that which all Codex Chapters aspire to. You are clearly taking that throw away comment to literally and out of context.

 

*Gloomily* You haven't read the author's WD interview have you? It goes " . . . the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations (Blood Angels) or stolid stubbornness (Space Wolves and Dark Angels), all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Thats where the idea that "everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" as fluff comes from. *Sigh* :rolleyes:

 

Id say Calgar strives to be Dante. After all he willingly deferred ultimate command to him during the 2nd war for Armageddon, along with Tu'Shan(sp?) When you have 2 Chapter Masters from 2 founding chapters bow to you, id say you are king of the hill.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Captain Idaho Posted Today, 06:32 PM

Does it say in the fluff that everyone wants to be an Ultramarine? No, it says that they are the epitome that Guilliman intended, and that which all Codex Chapters aspire to. You are clearly taking that throw away comment to literally and out of context.

 

*Gloomily* You haven't read the author's WD interview have you? It goes " . . . the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations (Blood Angels) or stolid stubbornness (Space Wolves and Dark Angels), all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognise Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Thats where the idea that "everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" as fluff comes from. *Sigh* ;)

 

Id say Calgar strives to be Dante. After all he willingly deferred ultimate command to him during the 2nd war for Armageddon, along with Tu'Shan(sp?) When you have 2 Chapter Masters from 2 founding chapters bow to you, id say you are king of the hill.

 

but when you wage war on Armagedon without any allied Space Marine Chapter (the Grey Knights arent a publicly known chapter) and defeat Angron's most fierce fighters, THEN you are king of the hill.

Who did that? Logan Grimnar did.

sorry, just had to.

 

wolf lord kieran