shadelance Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 wouldn't the best primarchs be the ones that are still alive? of course NOT! none of the primarchs that are alive can do to the emperor what Horus did. Horus was definitely the best. and of course primarchs are great, the fluff talks about them as being demi-gods of war. Horus was helped by deamons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1840844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kairos Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Correction: Horus had the infused power of all the chaos gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1840877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
swartsengagger Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 About the fact that Sanguinius was beaten down by the uber-bloodthirster and Angron banished by the Grey Knights I have a single remark. I'm sorry if someone has already mentioned it but couldn't find it. The main reason I believe that those things happened is this : Experience ! The Grey Knights have been fighting Deamons and Chaos-related beings for their entire life... if anyone has a chance of banishing a Deamon Primarch it's them. And remember that when Sanguinius fought that bloodthirster they didn't even know that Chaos existed! So in my opinion it's not such a shame to be knocked down by the probably the strongest of an enemy you have never faced before. To make a little comparison: let's say you've never heard about chaos deamons and you have to fight them with your army of blood angels and your opponent is the winner of the last Grand Tournament. How well would you do ? Even if you are the reïncarnation of SunTzu you're gonna have a hard time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1842851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Spirit Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I do find them far more able then just normal marines (well duh), but i'm kind of in the middle road. Besides discussion about the Emperor, the primarchs could (and some of them did) fall to doubt, sins and even fear. Yes they suffer from mortal weaknesses... they are 'mortal' (as in behead one and he's probably dead). One important thing i don't see popping up is why the primarchs were created. First off, they all symbolise one aspect of the Emperor himself. Guess you need 20 super over-the-top warriors who lay waste to entire armies to spread one person's awesomeness in. Second, and most important, combat isn't the only thing they were created for. Space Marines were created for combat. Primarchs are there to lead, to inspire, to be the voice, reason and commander of the legions. Yes they can single-handedly kick more ass then any space marine, but that is not their main role. So a discussion about how much ass this or that primarch can kick isn't really fruitfull... well save for some nice discussion. ;) PS. as for more ontopic: BL and the authors have said that while you can take the BL books as official canon, they are basically a retelling of history from one or a couple p.o.v.'s. That means that in one story, from a marine's perspective their primarch is a Godlike being wich you can't even look in the eye without brainnumbing yourself. From another perpective (remembrancer maybe) the Primarch could look like a doubtfull and bloodletting superfreak. Again, the middle road is probably best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1842881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Quite frankly it all comes down to one question. What do you call great? Because if you call great being able to destroy the entire universe single handed then no the Primarchs weren't so great. But if you think killing a few hundred Space Marines in one go is great then they were. If you think surviving an explosion that just killed a few hundred Space marines is great then yes. If you think killing the Lord of All Bloodthirsters when you have no idea how to kill him great then yes. Sure they were not Gods and were mortal (read not invincible). But if you compared them to almost everything around them at the time, they were great. So I will take a road just higher (only just) then the middle road. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1843069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 As to the main argument, Primarchs not being great...seriously this is being argued. The fluff is blatant about their power and even if you follow the rules argument based on the current edition (go back to 2nd Ed, Chapter Masters, Farseers, Avatars, Bloodthirsters slaughtered armies) the multiplication of power of a Primarch compared to a regular marine would be great. Or better look at a Space Marine in Inquisitor, better then everyone else in the game. The inquisitor marines (and the movie marines) are probably close to what tehy ought to be in real life and regarding to primarchs...didnt canon fluff tell explicitly that a primarch to a marine is what a marine is to a normal human? If this is to then primarchs are pretty tough (kinda like a hundred marines) since a marine is really really tough compared to a human... but still not godlike. Sanguinus got a shattered leg from a blow and it took him quite some time to heal it and even poisons can kill a primarch, albeit a super deamonic poison but never the less. (Magnus even got seriously wounded by a space wolf...thats not godlike in my eyes) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1848485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 The Primarch's powers seems to be no more or less than any other mythological figure or divinity of a variety of different cultures. Thor and Loki were duped by Frost Giant magic on several occasions, Heracles/Hercules was duped and poisoned. Samson and Enkidu were brought down by the charms of women. These figures were no less potent in the mythos than the Primarchs are in theirs, and we estimate them to have "God-like" powers, yet were fallible; some of these characters were of "divine" stock, just as the Primarchs are considered to be. So yeah, the Primarchs arent PERFECT, yet neither is any figure in human history or myth! As to the Angel of Baal getting busted up by the Roughhouse Johnson of Bloodthirsters? I doubt he "just" got his legs broken in the sense that we would think of it; Roughhouse Johnson probably tied the Angel's legs into pretzel twists and knotted the ends to slow the guy down. I'm not sure a pair of broken legs is going to slow down a Marine for long, let alone a Primarch. Luckily the Bloodthirster killed a hundred Marines with a couple swings of his axe to make the poor Angel black out. That is what "normal" Bloodthirsters do after all. Angron and his cabal of Greater Daemons almost pulled the same feat on Armageddon I, but they were Grey Knight termies *shrugs* And to agree with Tutteman, power/greatness is a relative thing; An Inquisitor has the power to devastate an entire star system at a word, which is very powerful indeed. A Primarch would certainly crush him in combat like a 24 pack of beers at a Fraternity party. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1848527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know no fear Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 It took a company of grey knights to kill the bloodthirsters and a grand master to kill Angron :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1888422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I think its just the fact people don't understand what power in relation to 'mortal combat' means Or combat in any way whatsoever really Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1926435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damael Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 A superhuman warrior who beats down an Avatar of Khaine or Ka Bandha the Bloodthirster sounds pretty great to me. They didn't have the firepower of an Emperor Class Battleship or Imperator Titan... but only because they couldn't carry all the guns at once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1929203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Rosette Soulknyt Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Ok point of note: Horus had the powers of all Chaos Gods and still was no match for the Emperor that was holding back his power, so please never say that the Man is weak, you would just look stupid. Secondly are we forgetting that each Primarch had his own specialty?? Each had great tactician, CC or some other ability that made them so unique from each other, the Emporor didnt make 20 exact clones he made 20 Champions to lead HIS armies to Cleanse the Galaxy to bring peace. No one Primarch was better than the other, one wrote a book that every used, one beat up a titan, one killed the mother of all Bloodthirsters. Also they were not invincible, yes they died, one walked off on a holiday (yes puppy lord you know who you are) and one sits on a throne some would swear is healing. And one more sleeps waiting to HIS lord calls him Then yes there are those damn mutant Chaod Primarchs some dead and some unfortunetly still breathing, cant deny how tough they must be. To ever say that 20 Primarchs that outshine a hundred Sm are weak is just a laugh, seriously give it up. You cant compare them to anything .....well maybe seriously the Pheonix Lords should be considered equal, though who can seriously agree with so many Loyalist Players out there that with there age (yes they are tens of thousands of years older than our Primarchs) that they should be considered equal. Oh and Last words, Russ seriously not the strongest: have you chosen to forget that the Lion el Johnston beat him in combat?? Oh i forgot you dont like talking about that if your a Space Puppy player lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1929389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damegastompa Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Aloha, I half agree with the Primarchs being godly. But as GW usually does, over hypes them with insane stories, just like with space marines. I doubt one space marine can destroy an army like GW has said before, when all it takes is a lucky Supa gatla to take down about forty of them. But, they also went head to head against some truly massive beasts, and were created by one of the, if not the most powerful beings at the time, the Emperor. Also, they were able to command thousands of space marines each, who were formed by them if I am right, dunno on that. If that ain't godly, I dunno what is. Also, like previously said, they each had a special talent, or skills. However, they are nothing compared to when they became Deamonic, for all those who turned to chaos. Bam, Boom, Sanguinus died from Horus after he became demonically infused. But, the Emperor reigns supreme! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1932928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 banished killed you know what I mean. The emperor is weak.. theres no way he'd be as good as your thinking. Really? Read your old, old fluff. Two of the daemons the Emperor had to fight before Horus on his battle barge when the God of Mankind teleported onto the bridge during the Heresy were Doombreed ( a Bloodthirster Daemon Prince {Yes that's right, it's not a typo. I said a DP, not a greater daemon.)and N'Kari (A Keeper of Secrets Daemon Prince {Same goes for N'Kari}) Considering the stats for both and he TOOK DOWN AND BANISHED BOTH FOR A GOOD LONG TIME, according to the fluff, that's not a man to sneeze at. (And that's coming from someone who's main army IS Chaos {about 25K and 15 years worth of Chaos}) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1932958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Correction: Horus had the infused power of all the chaos gods. You're both right. See my previous post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1932963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazard Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 The Primarch's powers seems to be no more or less than any other mythological figure or divinity of a variety of different cultures. Thor and Loki were duped by Frost Giant magic on several occasions, Heracles/Hercules was duped and poisoned. Samson and Enkidu were brought down by the charms of women. These figures were no less potent in the mythos than the Primarchs are in theirs, and we estimate them to have "God-like" powers, yet were fallible; some of these characters were of "divine" stock, just as the Primarchs are considered to be. So yeah, the Primarchs arent PERFECT, yet neither is any figure in human history or myth! +1 to that! As a fan of myth and of folklore I have to agree with this assesment. Most mythical heroes and Gods in their respective folklores will easily overcome challenges that no man could hope to overcome but eventualy even they face something that gives them problems. Much the same goes for primarchs. Primarchs are God like, mosst people that dont see it that way dont have a correct definition of "God". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/149629-primarchs-aint-so-great/page/6/#findComment-1934130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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