SoB question

[Canoness Lady Zealot]

Heya! I’m a returning Warhammer 40k player and I decided to finally make a WH army. I am mainly going with a SoB army with a mix of DM GKs. But my question was about the flamers. I had decided upon using mostly Storm bolters squads for infantry and melta guns for heavy armor types. But while doing a bit of research on how some people are building their armies, I notice a lot of flamers. My question is what makes flamers so great, a friend of mine wasn’t big into flamers so I guess that kinda rubbed off on me. My HQ’s are mostly done, so I decided I’d start with the troop selection before anything else. But before I can run out and buy ‘em and all that good jazz need to know what I’m working with.

 

And sadly no I do not have the 5th edition rules yet, otherwise I would likely already know the answer to my own question -.-; I’ll be getting that sometime this week, I just wish it was cheaper lol.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Peredyne]

The 5th edition rules are the reason for the upswing in flamers. The new rules come down to this, if the model is touched by the template, it is hit.

[WarriorFish]

Actually that's not the reason - flamers automatically hit all models touched by the template before too. It's not even the increase in cover saves that means more flamers (though this is a factor) - the main flamer improvement is on multiple templates: they're all resolved simultaneously.

 

The SoB naturally benefit greatly from this as they can have multiple flamers. So no longer will your first flamer wipe out all models in range - a wonderful thing indeed! :tu:

 

Of course, flamers have always been a reliable weapon, especially against the hordes - but since SoB can have AP1 flamers too... it's nasty. Since SoB love flame weapons anyway and they're a short range army, they pretty much go hand in hand. Plus flaming the xenos and traitors is always good fun.

 

Anyway, welcome to the =][= Canoness Lady Zealot! I'm sure you'll find the Ordos section of the BnC very useful. Sometimes we even have something clever to say :P

[Arkaniss]

A SoB army without Flamers? What is this heresy? :P

 

No - always take a few flamers. I do anyway - they're great for taking out hordes - mandatory even, but still they're great for any enemy you face really. Laying a flamer template on a squad of Marines is still going to cause some casualties - even with T4 and a 3+ save.

 

All in all you should have flamers in every army possible in my opinion. Especially so in a SoB army - its part of what they do.

 

Oh, and welcome to the BnC! ;)

[Melissia]

5E has a lot of cover. Flamers ignore cover, but Storm Bolters are still effected by it.

There are no more partial hits for templates (yes, there were partial hits before, at least according to GW in their own .pdf file).

Sisters gain access to Heavy Flamers, which are good enough that they shoudl be taken one per Battle Sisters squad in a competative list.

 

 

The standard BSS squad will be H-Flamer, Meltagun, VSS with Bolter and Book, and then they're modified after that based on your army's needs (some might go with twin meltaguns, although I would prefer not to focus my anti-tank ability in one squad).

[Imperator Mos]

Flamers work wonders, especially on Seraphim. I use meltas with my troops, but I wouldn't discourage anybody from taking flamers. I use them in my Astartes lists too. Proxy some models and see what works best for you.

[WAR]

flamers rock with DG plus part of the sisters holy trinty (bolter, meltgun and flamer) I would go with the heavy flamer so you can still take the storm bolter or melta gun.....always upgrade to a veteran sister superior and take the Book of St Lucuis best five points ever

[mercenary]

Just wanted to add my support to the value of any type of flamer included in any unit of Seraphim, or sisters of battle squad with dedicated transport. Being highly mobile, enables you to correctly positions those templates for maximum effect. On footslogging squads however, flamers really are not worth it as you are unable to achieve optimum template placement with such a small move. IMHO you are better having either meltas, stormbolters, or even no upgrades whatsoever in footslogging squads. So it really depends on your list, whether flamers have a place. I typicaly run a combined footslogging Sisters and Grey Knight list which includes no flamers. Large squads of sisters, with their power armour and bolters make awesome troop choices, and compliment Grey Knights extremely well.

[Pratch]

Heavy flamers are awesome. They're AP4 to start with, so if you don't have the faith available to make them AP1, or if you fail the faith test, they'll wound most enemies with no save possible (main exceptions being Marines of any form, and MCs). Heavy flamer/meltagun combos work quite well. Stormbolters are ok, but aren't really worth the points as they're basically a bolter with Assault2.

[Melissia]

And since Sisters aren't made for assault , it just means you'll have an extra shot or two as you try and march into rapid fire range.

[Canoness Lady Zealot]

Hehe, okay I'm sold then... I'll fire up the flamers and see what kind of punishment I can dish out. I'll find some way to carry a few meltas as well, I want some tank punching abilities. With two troop squads of Grey knights and the Terminators that should be more than enough bolter firepower anyway. I am wondering though why is it no one takes Inferno pistols on their Seraphim, they seem like they'd be awsome since the seraphim seem like they'd usually be up close anyway or is there something I'm missing?

 

Either way thank you very much for the advice, I was kinda worried about posting honestly, some forums aren't so nice to newbies. >.> And thank you for welcoming me as well, I got a ways to go before I start buying everything I need, i really wanna make sure my army is the way i want it before hand. I have however started getting the parts for my HQ's, of which I have three. Two Canoness's whom are twins and one GK GrandMaster, I'll be switching them out from time to time. I would have likely put my HQ's together already if my Canoness's weren't stealing weapons from the Grey Knights. I love their storm bolters and Nemesis Force weapons, I was looking for a good model for my blessed weapons and decided to go with a spear, though I went ahead and made it double bladed. =P

 

LDZ

[SJumppanen]

Hehe, okay I'm sold then... I'll fire up the flamers and see what kind of punishment I can dish out. I'll find some way to carry a few meltas as well, I want some tank punching abilities. With two troop squads of Grey knights and the Terminators that should be more than enough bolter firepower anyway. I am wondering though why is it no one takes Inferno pistols on their Seraphim, they seem like they'd be awsome since the seraphim seem like they'd usually be up close anyway or is there something I'm missing?

 

I do use Seraphims with IP's, Troop sisters with Rhinos use flamers. This is mostly because there isn't enough Seraphim in the squad to get DG with sufficient reliability.

[WarriorFish]

The Ordos section of the BnC is probably one of the best forums to visit, which is why I'm bouncing around here so much (as much as they may try to get rid of me :P). Someone else had twin Canoness fluff too, so maybe it'll catch on?

 

As for Seras, IPs are very good but alas not cheap. Plus any opponent worth his salt will murder them once he sees what they've got - Seras are dangerous enough without IPs! Flamers are reasonably priced and function well (a flamer and +1A in CC is pretty awesome) and as mentioned before go nicely with Divine Guidence. Flamers are much more useful when you can place them better - and jump troops are fast enough to do this without relying on a transport (which can be popped).

 

A match made on Terra, I'm sure you'll agree! ;) So I consider flamers the "default" with IPs being a nice upgrade to provide some more AT punch.

 

Oh, Melissia - I seem to recall that partial hits for flamers were a 2nd Ed thing. I'm still not sure if I remember that edition fondly or not :P

[Melissia]

i'm just stating what I read based off of the official "40KPOSMajorChangesFlyer_1_.pdf" releaed by GW, which was a "How 5th Edition Effects Each Army" paper, a small little one page front and back FAQ.

 

For Witch Hunter, it listed:

 

Flamers and heavy flamers are now much more powerful as there

are no partial hits from template weapons.

 

Both running and safer transport vehicles will make it a lot easier to

get Battle Sister’s bolters, flamers and melta guns into range.

 

The new Line of Sight rules will provide ample targets for Exorcists

[Arkaniss]

Yeah i used to equip my Seraphim with IPs. They were brutal but attracted the firepower of a Star Destroyer every game after my mates caught on.

 

Seeing those expensive IPs wiped out most games before doing anything was a little annoying, so i now run them with Flamers. Cheaper and it does make them effective against all types of infantry. They usually survive a bit longer as opponents mostly go for your AT units first.

 

I guess i'll break out the IPs again every now and then to shake things up - besides i went to the expense and effort of converting my own models! :lol:

[mercenary]

In 4th I always ran 2 twin IP, for character/special weapon sniping as the 6 inch range was easy to take advantage of, but the rules no longer allow this in 5th. They were also useful to bolster my anti-tank in a combined WH/Grey Knight force. Now with 5th, Seraphim with their krak grenades and Veteran with Eviscerator can generally take out all but the toughest armour without the need of the IP, due to the hits directed at the rear armour of tanks. I think with Seraphim, there is no wrong choice in which upgrades you take, just personal preference and how the squad fits in with the rest of your army.

[march10k]

On footslogging squads however, flamers really are not worth it as you are unable to achieve optimum template placement with such a small move. IMHO you are better having either meltas, stormbolters, or even no upgrades whatsoever in footslogging squads.

 

Couldn't agree less. Meltas outrange flamers by four inches, and your argument is based on this? Stormbolters are, IMHO, the worst choice. At longer ranges, sure, you get two boltgun shots per SB (so four?) on the move, and one extra one (so two?) when stationary. But long ranged shooting isn't what SOB do. When you've closed to within rapid-fire range, you're definitely close enough to use the melta, and generally also going to have effects with flamers. At that range, there is no functional difference between a boltgun and a stormbolter, unless you're charging. And if you're close enough to charge, you're in flamer range. If you're going to take stormbolters in battle sisters squads, save the points and don't take anything. I've had incredibly good results with a heavy flamer and a meltagun per dismounted battle sister squad. Where storm bolters do make some sense to me is in dominion squads. A five-girl squad with three to five (depending on your feelings on ablative wounds) stormbolters puts out a HIGH level of mobile bolter fire for a small number of models and points.

[mercenary]

I've had incredibly good results with a heavy flamer and a meltagun per dismounted battle sister squad.

 

Against which opponent may I ask? I find that any competent general will assault you, rather than allow you to get a well placed template shot off. Sure your template is 8 inches, but how many hits do you get with it, unless you started off really close to your target?

 

Couldn't agree less. Meltas outrange flamers by four inches, and your argument is based on this?

 

What argument? Meltas have a rightful place in footslogging lists, I was not arguing otherwise. In my experience flamers do poorly in the times I run a footslogging list due to the lack of mobility getting the template to cover the majority of the opposing squad. Sure you may get the first row 2-3 models, which is only marginally better than a rapid firing bolter, so you are better off running either meltas or stormbolters. Hey I am not a fan of the SB either, but there are people who use them, and it is only 10 points for a squad.

[march10k]

Against which opponent may I ask? I find that any competent general will assault you, rather than allow you to get a well placed template shot off. Sure your template is 8 inches, but how many hits do you get with it, unless you started off really close to your target?

 

Against Guard. Against MEQs. Against Tau. To be honest, any competent general will assault sisters, period. It has nothing to do with a flamer. Do you want to face two S4 attacks per model that hit on 3+, or one S3 attack that hits on 4+? If a sisters general can't win in an environment where ANY enemy (other than maybe fire warriors?) would rather assault you than face repeated rounds of short-ranged fire, he can't win, period. As for how many hits, it depends. If the enemy is in cover, he's generally packed in tighter, so I get a good four hits even from 6" away. If the enemy is spread out and range is long, one or two. If the enemy tried to charge and found himself too short, (don't those 6.5" charges suck?), I routinely get eight or more. I'd say my average is 4-5 models, if I get to shoot the flamer at all (it is possible to get within 12" without getting within 8.

 

What argument? Meltas have a rightful place in footslogging lists, I was not arguing otherwise. In my experience flamers do poorly in the times I run a footslogging list due to the lack of mobility getting the template to cover the majority of the opposing squad. Sure you may get the first row 2-3 models, which is only marginally better than a rapid firing bolter, so you are better off running either meltas or stormbolters. Hey I am not a fan of the SB either, but there are people who use them, and it is only 10 points for a squad.

 

Which argument? This one:

 

On footslogging squads however, flamers really are not worth it as you are unable to achieve optimum template placement with such a small move. IMHO you are better having either meltas, stormbolters, or even no upgrades whatsoever in footslogging squads

 

Now, as for your new argument:

 

 

 

Sure you may get the first row 2-3 models, which is only marginally better than a rapid firing bolter, so you are better off running either meltas or stormbolters.

Um...2-3 autohits (I average 4-5) with a S4 or S5 weapon is only marginally better than two shots with a S4 weapon? In what universe? If anything, a stormbolter is the goat here. It gets the same results as the bolter, for a 5 point premium. I'm all about running meltas, by the way. One melta and one heavy flamer. I agree that a meltagun is better than a flamer, or else I'd take a flamer and heavy flamer combo, as some SoB players do.

 

As for the meltas, it depends on the target.... Let's say it's three models, and they're MEQs. The melta has a 56% chance of killing a marine. A flamer has a 42% chance of killing at least one marine, a 13% chance of killing at least two, and a 2% chance of killing all three. Even if you say you only hit three marines with the flamer, it's really not much worse, if at all, against MEQs. And that's assuming that you don't pray for the emperor to guide your hand... If you compare a heavy flamer hitting three marines to a meltagun hitting a marine, it's a different story. The heavy flamer has a 70% chance of killing at least one of the three marines, a 31% chance of killing at least two, and a 10% chance of killing all three. Why do I take a melta with my heavy flamer, instead of a flamer? Vehicles. The melta isn't that much worse (remember, I average 4-5 hits, not 2-3) than the light flamer at killing MEQs (although the flamer crushes the melta against light infantry), but an AP1 flamer still doesn't hurt tanks.

 

Hey I am not a fan of the SB either, but there are people who use them, and it is only 10 points for a squad.

 

Only ten points? for those ten points, you get another sister. at 24" (stationary), that's one less shot and one more wound than the twin stormbolter option. At 12", that's two more shots and one more wound than the stormbolter option.

 

Two stormbolters aren't worth ten points in a squad of battle sisters. The stormbolter doesn't give the squad anything that it didn't already have. The melta and the flamer do. Stormbolters on sisters only make sense when you're putting a decent number of bolts downrange to 24" on the move. And that's a job that dominions do better.

[mercenary]

To be honest, any competent general will assault sisters, period.

 

I think that it is does really, as being in a good position to get a flame shot off, meant that in the previous turn your opponent either failed to charge you, or got careless and moved into the danger zone. Really I am glad you are getting good results from your foot mounted flamers, all the power to you. I find the opposite though, my opponents keep their models apart, and will generally always assault a sisters unit, or steer clear from very short ranged firefights. Often I only get a single model under a flame shot, coming from those who have lost their transport and are footslogging. My original post was merely adding that flamers work best in mounted or fast moving troops so you can reliably get the templates to cover the maximum number of models in the squad.

 

Um...2-3 autohits (I average 4-5) with a S4 or S5 weapon is only marginally better than two shots with a S4 weapon? In what universe? If anything, a stormbolter is the goat here. It gets the same results as the bolter, for a 5 point premium. I'm all about running meltas, by the way. One melta and one heavy flamer. I agree that a meltagun is better than a flamer, or else I'd take a flamer and heavy flamer combo, as some SoB players do.

 

I understand you are one of those players that are bitterly opposed to the stormbolter, but there are people who use them and I am not going to try and change your opinion on that. Not all sister squads are played the same by every player, and I can appreciate that.

 

Now, as for your new argument:

 

I think I have been saying the same thing the whole time, there is no new arguments from me. Flamers work best in mech/jump infantry, in footslogging lists you are better off with either melta (my pick), or stormbolter. And yes I know that you completely disagree, which was outlined quite clearly in your original post. I just find that you don't see too many footslogging flamer equipped sisters lists, and I think that is for a reason?

[OrdosInquisition]

I would use one unit with Storm Bolters for backline objective work, probably 10 sisters with two storm bolters and a veteran superior with a storm bolter and book if your not inducting guard. It can be hard to get long range sister squads, particulary from your troops, but this one has done it for me in the past, aside from that, take flamers for close work, and the meltas for anti tank.

[WarriorFish]

Flamers and heavy flamers are now much more powerful as there

are no partial hits from template weapons.

 

Both running and safer transport vehicles will make it a lot easier to

get Battle Sister’s bolters, flamers and melta guns into range.

 

The new Line of Sight rules will provide ample targets for Exorcists

Oh GW, how you amuse me so.

 

I wish you wouldn't, though :D