What about Smoke AND beeing 50% + obscured

[krewl]

I just thought of something which would seam even worse then what I normally consider.

 

When I move my raider (Regular or LRC) forward an park it behind a building for more then 50% and I use smoke (Which grants only glancing hits for one turn.) and then my enemy shoots at the raider. Would I then have a raider which you need to hit, penetrate, roll a save on 4+ for, and THEN it could only be a glancing hit with only 1/6th chance of immobilization (the one I consider the worst because it will wreck firelanes and charge plans. )

 

In effect, can I stack the save and smoke in the DH codex sense?

[Grif 69]

You get the save and that's all. There's no reduction to glancing in 5th.

[WAR]

considering most weapons glance LR with the exception of melta at half range and Lascannons or a strength 10 ordance weapon.....I just take the 4+ cover save and drop the SL

[revnow]

@Grif 69: DH Codex

 

@krewl: Yes that is the case, but good luck making a Land Raider 50% obscured to anything that has the feasibility of hurting it.

[krewl]

@revnow:

I know it would be hard to get 50% obscured, but some terrain we have at the club is pretty big. So thanks for clearing that up.

 

P.S. I like your signature, I agree with it for 100% (Which is why my ravenwing list is going to the Dutch GT this weekend. 100% speed in that list only bikes, a jetbike and speeders. :)

[mughi3]

Actually krewl i think you are correct as RAW is. the raider hiding 50% or more would count as obscured and grant a 4+ save since the DH codex(IIRC)has the old rules for smoke then it takes precedence over the new rules for smoke. since you are not using old smoke VS new smoke as per the RAW the building would indeed grant a 4+ save and your smoke launchers would also make all hits glancing(no 4+ save). so your effectively getting a save plus a reduction(pen to glance) instead of trying to take a double save.

 

As noted previously however it's hard to hide a land raider that much and besides you will probably get dirty looks from your opponent even if it is doable by the RAW.

[Gaz1858]

Yep your totally correct mate. Due to the obscured rule any vehicle with >50% of itself obscured from firer gets a 4+save. If you had cannily used your smoke launchers aswell then you would get to roll for the 4+ to negate the shot entirely then if that failed the most he could get is a glancing hit due to the DH codex overruling rulebook on smoke launcher rules.

[Harmi]

As noted previously however it's hard to hide a land raider that much and besides you will probably get dirty looks from your opponent even if it is doable by the RAW.

 

The rulebook says clearly that some smokelaunchers does not work as described and rules of Codex will be used. There is no reason to argue about, because it is clearly said.

[march10k]

The bigger question is this: WHY would you waste your smoke on a turn that you get the 4+ obscured save? It's not like you're going to get that 4+ every turn. Save the smoke for the turn you're out in the open!

[mughi3]

As noted previously however it's hard to hide a land raider that much and besides you will probably get dirty looks from your opponent even if it is doable by the RAW.

 

The rulebook says clearly that some smoke launchers does not work as described and rules of Codex will be used. There is no reason to argue about, because it is clearly said.

I was referring to sportsmanship here.

 

can you do it?

yes?

is it legal by RAW?

yes?

will you look like a jerk trying to find a loophole/bend the rules?

most likely to your opponent-yes

[number6]

I was referring to sportsmanship here.

 

can you do it?

yes?

is it legal by RAW?

yes?

will you look like a jerk trying to find a loophole/bend the rules?

most likely to your opponent-yes

 

As pointed out elsewhere, this is a very significant problem when playing the DH. We players are in a bind.

 

GW -- and most players and tournaments -- will say, "You must play RAW! Codex overrules BRB! No exceptions!" This is all fine and dandy, "RAW is the only fair way to play!" you'll hear. But inevitably, because GW is lax in its duties, this will result in some codexes having surprising, game-altering rules. The DH isn't the only army like this, though it is far and away the most extreme example. And believe me when I say that there are plenty of players out there who intend to "game the system" in this way with their older codexes and chortle all the way home about it, too.

 

I take no pleasure in being forced by RAW to take advantage of very "cheaterly" rules that we happen to possess. (See all the "pros" in Marid's DH "gotcha" FAQ.) Does it not feel unfair to you that our Space Marine opponents have assault 4 rending assault cannons and land raiders that can transport 12 models?

 

But the alternative to playing a "clean, fair, RAW" game is to laboriously negotiate with each and every opponent about the alterations you wish to make. GW officially endorses changing the rules whenever you and an opponent can agree. They openly admit to doing this themselves all the time. (See my signature!) However, this takes a lot of work, especially for us DH players because we have so very many exceptions to the normal rules. Is it fair to force our opponents to negotiate to create a "fair" game?

 

This really begs the question: What is fair? On the one hand, playing by the rules should be fair. Except, from a sportsmanship angle, doing so may not feel like it.

 

I don't have an answer to this moral quandary. I'm no longer certain about the way I want to deal with this in my future games.

 

And I definitely don't appreciate GW forcing us into this position. :whistling: Neverthess, this is the hand we've been dealt, and this is a game, so it is incumbent upon us to make the best of it. Having a fun game is the goal, so do whatever you can to make that happen. It seems to me that following RAW must be the default, and alterations from RAW must be negotiated. If your opponent isn't open to negotiation, well, then use your superior land raider crusaders, smoke launchers, force weapons, thunder hammers, and psychic hoods for all they're worth. The cons (e.g., inferior assault cannons, storm shields) are not crippling. I know that I have decided, definitively, that I'm going to enter 'Ard Boyz for the first time next year, and I'm taking an "abusive" DH list that emphasizes all of our "broken, outdated" codex RAW rules and run it for all its worth. That'll show GW! :whistling:

[march10k]

A cover save for a vehicle as large as a land raider is a rarity. Only a fool would pop smoke when already in cover, since you only get the smoke once. If my opponent pulled up in a defilade and popped smoke, I'd call him a fool, not a cheater. I'd celebrate the fact that he won't have that smoke any more when he leaves his position and is caught in the open. Unless anyone takes land raiders as lascannon platforms, the tanks will have to move. If they move, they will be out in the open. If they use the smoke when in cover, they won't have it when they need it most. Oh, and if you are in cover with a land raider, the lascannons probably can't see anything, can they?

[Harmi]

I was referring to sportsmanship here.

 

It is not subject of sportmanship. Rules of smoke launchers are clearly written and playing otherwise would be cheating. I just tend to follow logical steps one by one.

 

 

For me it is easy to find a example when you could use smokelaunchers while land raider is in cover. Imagine battleground where are antitank weapons spread over enemy deployment zone. Middle of board is a building. Land raider is transporting grey knights at enemy deployment zone and controlling player decide to stop movement next the building and launch smoke launchers. Now land raider is in cover from antitank weapons behind the building and from otherside it is in open.

[Ambro]

Why do we have to put up with all the rubbish rules we get like assault cannons that only get 3 shots and teleport homers that dont do anything but then when there is somthing that benefits us like glancing smoke launchers we get people calling us cheating jerks. :) Answer me this Mughi....