turelhim vampire Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Quick question for you all: In the entry for Telion it doesn't mention that he has a camo cloak, therefore he doesn't have one. In the scout squad entry it says "the squad may have camo cloaks" Now, as Telion is purchased as an upgrade for the squad, and thus counts as part of it, "the squad" includes him, right? I am 90% sure this is the case, but I just wanted to check. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 He doesn't need it. He already has stealth and cannot have stealth twice (or would gain no benefit from it if he can). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1745640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 He doesn't need it. He already has stealth and cannot have stealth twice (or would gain no benefit from it if he can). Such is the conundrum of apparently being forced to purchase the cloak for him. While a mere 3 points, I myself have often found it being the easiest difference between a 1501/2 list or 1498/9. I really do hate the previous one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yes, even though he can't benefit from it you still have to buy it for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yes, even though he can't benefit from it you still have to buy it for him. where does it say you have to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I guess the idea is that he replaces the sergeant and the camo cloaks have to be bought for the whole squad. By implication, this includes Telion, even though he has no use for one. Had not really considered whether you had to in my original reply, only whether you could. I think on a technicality this is probably correct as there is no stipulation (that I know of) that states special characters cannot have any other gear than that in their entry. Might also have other implications for what gear he can take, though cannot remember fully at the moment. (Edit: Scratch this bit actually. Pretty sure all the other options require either a specifi model, or for them to have a bolter to exchange. I doubt you could call him a "scout sergeant", even though this is who he replaces and I would not have though his weapon would count as a vanilla bolter, even if you wanted to replace it.) Of course, the logical way to interpret this (and the one I assume to be intended) would be to simply exclude him from the squad for this purpose, though RAW does seem to be a bit iffy on the subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I guess the idea is that he replaces the sergeant and the camo cloaks have to be bought for the whole squad. By implication, this includes Telion, even though he has no use for one. in that case, buy the squad with the SGT, replace the SGT with telion, then buy the cloaks, since he hasn't got the option to buy it and its been traditional for years that special characters cannot buy extra equipment he should not be expected to Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Just to make it clear, I am in no way in favour of having to buy it and am looking for a RAW reason not to. That said, I'm not sure a "tradition" is going to carry much weight in RAW and the entry for camo cloaks suggests it has to be bought for the whole unit or not at all. Telion in replacing the sergeant becomes part of the unit, thus comes under the "squad may have" statement, although he probably will not qualify for the other wargear options. I think it would be pretty pathetic to enforce this one but I'm not so far seeing a RAW way out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I think it would be pretty pathetic to enforce this one but I'm not so far seeing a RAW way out. then just ignore it, this may be a situation (like many) where RAW can do nothing, I don't see why any normal player would enforce you to pay the pts, I wouldn't, and I wouldn't pay for it myself as it would be a complete waste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Gladly. I'm quite happy to just ignore it and hope I do not encounter an abnormal player who does try to enforce it. I know this one's a pretty petty one but is is generally nicer to have a RAW answer if someone does bring it up though (although I realise RAW will never cover everything). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 You may not like it and he may not benefit, but I think the codex is pretty clear. It says "the squad" which would includes everyone, including Telion. Telion is part of the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I've found myself caught out by this rule. Unsure what to do, I paid the points figuring that Telion was part of the squad. It's certainly an awkward thing, though. As Souchan says, the odd points saved can be all the difference between squeezing another juicy upgrade into the list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1746952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Would have been so much easier if they just listed camo cloak in his wargear. He's wearing a cloak and has stealth :cuss! I think there is a high proability that 2+2 does indeed equal 4 in this case. It may be intentional that you have to throw away 3 points but it looks, feels and smells like an oversight to me. I really can't imagine those 3 points are required to prevent the unit being overpowered for the cost. Can't really argue with RAW but I know how I think it should be played, for what it's worth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1747355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitan Montag Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 This problem has been bugging me too. Especially when every time I make a list it ends up as 1 point over. There IS a bit of wriggle room though : In the orks FAQ it discusses a similar situation When you have flash gits you can pay 5 points to upgrade their snazzgunz. If one of them is upgraded to a painboy he loses his snazzgun - do you still have to pay the points for the upgrade? (as the codex says ALL flashgitz must upgrade - in the same way as for camo cloaks on scouts.) GW ruled that in this case you DON'T have to pay the points as " they are not equipped with snazzguns and therefore the upgrade doesn't make sense for them " (emphasis mine). I would argue that as Telion already has stealth, giving him a camo cloak doesn't make sense either, so he doesn't need 3pts spending on him. I don't play tournaments, and my opponents are always bringing overpoints lists anyway, so I can stop worrying. I don't think it will convince that f%^&*ing guy when he gets all RAW on you, - but most reasonable players will at least give it some thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1747649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 but most reasonable players will at least give it some thought. Most reasonable players would probably laugh at the idea of making you pay for it, but sadly there are so few "reasonable players" around these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1747732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 but most reasonable players will at least give it some thought. Most reasonable players would probably laugh at the idea of making you pay for it, but sadly there are so few "reasonable players" around these days. very true, at least not in GW's Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1747915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 There IS a bit of wriggle room though : In the orks FAQ it discusses a similar situation When you have flash gits you can pay 5 points to upgrade their snazzgunz. If one of them is upgraded to a painboy he loses his snazzgun - do you still have to pay the points for the upgrade? (as the codex says ALL flashgitz must upgrade - in the same way as for camo cloaks on scouts.) GW ruled that in this case you DON'T have to pay the points as " they are not equipped with snazzguns and therefore the upgrade doesn't make sense for them " (emphasis mine). That makes a lot of sense to me, and would probably be the precedent I would argue from if I had to. On the other hand, note that although traditionally special characters have not had wargear options, Marneus Calgar now has one wargear option, so we can't argue from tradition. The argument from "not making sense" seems pretty strong to me though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1748114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Alright, after further research I have discovered something significant. Telion has the Stealth USR. Per Pg 76 BRB this means... "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1." (emphasis mine) Seeing as Telion is not his own unit and is an upgrade character the entire unit benefits if he is alive. So you don't need to worry about buying him a cloak or not because of how the rule is worded. Buying the squad cloaks is nearly useless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1748116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 That's an interesting idea but I'm not sure it will overcome the bit about characters not confering their special rules on the unt (or vice versa), unless stated otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1748906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 But isn't telion not actually a character, he's just an upgrade, kinda like karanak or the changeling from the daemon codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1748920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Good point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1748948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 but even a sgt is a "character" - but an "upgrade" rather than "independant" one. is Stealth one of those USRs conferred from charcter to unit? (at work, no book) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1749107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 It is. Our group has been arguing about this since the dex came out, and I think it's still getting diced for each game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1749251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitan Montag Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 The stealth USR is not *ed in the rulebook - so it is not lost when a character who doesn't have it joins the unit, or vice versa. However I can't find anywhere where it says that if a character has stealth it confers the ability to the unit - Unless you follow Mordekiem's interpretation of the way stealth is described on p76 BBB. Usually it says in a character's entry if a special ability is also conferred to the unit, it doesn't for Telion. So my reading would be that only Telion has stealth (unless you buy the scouts cloaks). I'll be giving my scouts cloaks anyway, just in case Telion dies (and to prevent any arguments). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1749270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I'd say it's a bit more complicated than that though. The rules that say characters do not confer the rule on the unit they join only explicitly applies to ICs, not upgrade characters. Telion does not have the IC rule on his profile, meaning this does not apply to him. I could just be overlooking something but I'm not sure the rulebook covers upgrade characters and special rules in this way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/#findComment-1749300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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