nighthawks Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 well, independent characters do not confer special rules to units they join, unless specifically stated in the USR or character profile (i.e. stubborn, liturgies of hate). stealth is not one of these rules. upgrade characters are not addressed in the above regard, but I feel it "makes sense" that they would be no different (and surely not BETTER) than ICs in this regard. the USR description of Stealth uses "unit" rather than "model." I believe that this is just an awkwardly used convention as most of the time the rule applies to whole units. I have no RAW backing here, it just strikes me as such. I say tellion does not incur +3 points when cloaks are purchased. he already costs 3.85 times as much as a single scout, :cuss... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1749721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Completely agree it is probably best to use the IC rules for confering special rules, though I am honestly not sure if this is technically correct. I also truly believe he is not intended to incur the 3pts cost for a camo cloak that he has no use for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1749976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
turelhim vampire Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'll ring Andy Joyce at GW later and see what he has to say - he does all the FAQ's for Grand Tournaments so is as close to an official wording on the matter as you can get until an actual FAQ comes out to cover it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1750048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 If Telion was an IC then I would agree about transferring the power to the unit. But he is not and is a member of the unit just like everyone else. A comparable idea is the exarch powers in the eldar book. They are spelled out more clearly, but the concept is the same. And the BRB specifically says "unit" not model. Also, I don't think GW would give him this otherwise not that exciting ability. And Telion's fluff and otehr skills point to him as teaching and protecting the newbies. It would also nicely solve the cloak dilema so you have a very nice, neat answer to two otherwise unwieldy sitautions. GW may have jsut gotten lucky, but I think they actually may have thought this one thru. This isn't an ironclad answer, but it is simple easy and supported by the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1751217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 It would also nicely solve the cloak dilema so you have a very nice, neat answer to two otherwise unwieldy sitautions. How? I might be misunderstanding you, but that solution would seem to make the Cloak upgrade utterly redundant when Telion is present. I can't think of a precedent for that in a Codex without GW specifying the situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1751629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The dilemna is the original question posed by this thread. Do I have to buy a cloak for Telion if I buy them for the unit? Telion's abity to grant the same effect to the entire unit means that taking cloaks is redundant so no need to worry if you need to buy him one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1752701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 As far as I can see - telion in a scout squad gives the unit all of his special rules as the rules in question are not marked with an * - In addition - These skills are only ever lost by an independant character/squad unioun... telion is not an independant character As for the cloaks.. Unless you are combat squading - in which case you end up with a 5 or a 0 you have just wasted your points... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1752887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnoBanker Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 There is a similar argument going on in the Chapters of Legend forum. I'm a strong supporter of the "Tellion gives the whole unit stealth" idea. My backup has been the same as stated above. If A=B, and B=C then A=C (Stealth=Telion, Telion=Unit, then Stealth=Unit) To the OP, I asked that question also in the other post, and the simple answer was; "The squad may have camo cloaks. Unfortunatly its not like the entry for meltabombs on the Vanguard of "any model may have meltabombs". So in conclusion, I'd say; Take Telion, and you get the Stealth USR (so you don't have to buy the Camo Cloaks as a redundency). Don't take him, and buy the Camo Cloaks for everybody. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1754999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 nowhere does it say that Telion confers Stealth to his unit. it's simply not there. buy the cloaks at +3N points for N scouts (not counting telion) and everyone gets stealth. otherwise, only the T man has it. I see no way to give the unit an ability that does not transfer, per the BRB. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1755538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 nowhere does it say that Telion confers Stealth to his unit. it's simply not there. buy the cloaks at +3N points for N scouts (not counting telion) and everyone gets stealth. otherwise, only the T man has it. I see no way to give the unit an ability that does not transfer, per the BRB. except the main rulebook says it does "ALL of the units cover saves are Improved by +1" not just telions, the main rules clearly state ALL of the unit, they wouldn't if he was an independent character, but he isn't Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1755549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Wow, this discussion has gone through many stages of evolution. @anyone arguing that Telion doesn't provide the squad with stealth, but also doesn't have to buy a cloak: You are contradicting yourselves. You are saying that you have to RAW one thing, but RAI another. That's sad, really. Stick with something. I think that maybe Telion has finally found an excuse to be +50 points... I'm going to look into this myself. I'd be happy to hear from turelhim what GW reps say, however, I'd have to take it with a grain of salt. GW officials are notorious for saying dumb stuff... things like "incinerators benefit from He'Stan". edit- From my reading of both the rulebook and the codex, he does indeed grant the stealth USR. I think I may just start using this guy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1756484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 To me, the squad getting stealth is part of what you're paying 50 points for. You've already bought the sergeant in the original 75pts, so the 50 is pure upgrade, including confering stealth on the unit. Telion doesn't join the unit, he's part of it from the word go, and so 'all of the unit' would seem to apply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1878469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Tellion has the 'Stealth' universal special rule. When reading the rule on p76, it says "All of the unit's cover saves...". What unit? Tellion. In the front, on p3, the rulebook says a unit 'usually' consist of several models... ...can also be a single, very large or monstrous... ...or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'. The USR using the word unit does not have to mean the scout squad. It can refer to Tellion himself. The USR says nothing about any sort of character confering this ability onto a unit he is with. Clearly, if the scouts want their +1 to cover, they need to buy their cloaks. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1878511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Tellion has the 'Stealth' universal special rule. When reading the rule on p76, it says "All of the unit's cover saves...". What unit? Tellion. In the front, on p3, the rulebook says a unit 'usually' consist of several models... ...can also be a single, very large or monstrous... ...or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'. The USR using the word unit does not have to mean the scout squad. It can refer to Tellion himself. The USR says nothing about any sort of character confering this ability onto a unit he is with. Clearly, if the scouts want their +1 to cover, they need to buy their cloaks. RoV Rat - you're trying to say Tellion's a unit now??? Any idea how wrong that is? Would you like to maintain that argument and have me shoot at Tellion only? Or charge Tellion only? Telion is not a unit. The word unit in the USR does not refer to Tellion RAW this is open and shut. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1878536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elijahdprophet Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think it would have been better if they had given Tellion a cloak instead of the Stealth rule. I agree that his bonus is not given to the entire squad, but that he does not need a cloak. He himself has the stealth rule, so does not need a cloak, and can NOT buy one, because his stat block does not say you can. So a 5 man squad plus Tellion would need 5 cloaks, and the T man uses his Stealth to get the same bonus. There is not, as near as I can tell, any precedent for him to convey a bonus to the troops he is attached to without it being specifically outlined in his rules. Edited to say that I think it would be sweet if he gave the bonus to the squad, but there is nothing in the rules to say it does. In fact, I would wager that the RAI is that he DOES give the bonus, which is why they didn't just give him a cloak, but the RAW doesn't make it very clear. The lack of the asterisk means he doesn't LOSE it, but it does not say the rest of the squad gains it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1878539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Ummm :D At the risk of sounding belligerent or condescending, where is the confusion with this: "All of the units cover saves are improved by +1" Telion is an upgrade, he is not an IC. He has stealth. If he has stealth he follows the stealth rule. If he follows the stealth rule all of the units cover saves are improved by +1. Where am I not understanding something >< ?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1878560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The ork argument with flash gits is not a parralel, mainly because the rull says flashgits replace their guns, a painboy is not a flashgit, so as long as you upgrade to the painboy before you upgrade the guns your fine. The stealth rules does say the unit, if you look to other rules (for example furious charge) they tend to specify the model with the rule benifit, so I beleave as raw telion gives stealth to the whole unit. I dont know if I like that as telions eye of vengence rule combined with bs 6 makes him easily worth his points. In most cases I would prefer telion over a vindicar, bs 6 and 2 shots vs bs 5 and one shot (but ap2 so that helps) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1878563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Tellion has the 'Stealth' universal special rule. When reading the rule on p76, it says "All of the unit's cover saves...". What unit? Tellion. In the front, on p3, the rulebook says a unit 'usually' consist of several models... ...can also be a single, very large or monstrous... ...or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'. The USR using the word unit does not have to mean the scout squad. It can refer to Tellion himself. The USR says nothing about any sort of character confering this ability onto a unit he is with. Clearly, if the scouts want their +1 to cover, they need to buy their cloaks. RoV Rat - you're trying to say Tellion's a unit now??? Any idea how wrong that is? Would you like to maintain that argument and have me shoot at Tellion only? Or charge Tellion only? Telion is not a unit. The word unit in the USR does not refer to Tellion RAW this is open and shut. Okay, maybe I put that badly :) I am most certainly not suggesting that Tellion is a 'seperate' unit as such, however, if Tellion himself has the Stealth rule, but the rest of the scouts don't, how do we go with this? Nothing says it is confered to the rest of the scouts at all, only Tellion has Stealth. By RAW, Tellion has Stealth. But the rest of his squad probably doesn't, as they don't have that special rule, and the special rule isn't stated as being confered by a character. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1879879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymmot Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 he is not a character, he is an upgrade, he replaces the exsisting sergeant, I blieve he gives stealth to the whole unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1880443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Okay, maybe I put that badly :angry: I am most certainly not suggesting that Tellion is a 'seperate' unit as such, however, if Tellion himself has the Stealth rule, but the rest of the scouts don't, how do we go with this? Look below! Nothing says it is confered to the rest of the scouts at all, only Tellion has Stealth.By RAW, Tellion has Stealth. But the rest of his squad probably doesn't, as they don't have that special rule, and the special rule isn't stated as being confered by a character. RoV To be 100% accurate, you're actually right. The squad DOES NOT have stealth. They do not have this special rule. However, they do get a +1 to their cover save. Why? Because Tellion has Stealth and Stealth stipulates that all of the unit's cover saves are improved by 1. Additionally, Tellion is a squad member not a character. And, as mentioned he has an ability which grants ALL of his unit a +1 save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1880862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 To be 100% accurate, you're actually right. The squad DOES NOT have stealth. They do not have this special rule. However, they do get a +1 to their cover save. Why? Because Tellion has Stealth and Stealth stipulates that all of the unit's cover saves are improved by 1. Additionally, Tellion is a squad member not a character. And, as mentioned he has an ability which grants ALL of his unit a +1 save. Well, Chronos is described as an upgrade, and Tellion on the opposite page, is not.is not. The squad sergeant is not upgraded to Tellion, but replaced with Tellion. I do see your point, and probably I would be happy to go with the +1 in a friendly game. It certainly sounds like it could be a unit upgrade, but if so, why didn't they put it in the rules like they did with Chronos? In a tournament, I wouldn't be comfortable claiming a 2+ cover save due to camo cloaks and Stealth unless this is clarified. RAW is inconclusive, and even RAI could be either way. Gotta love GW's editing process... :unsure: RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1881104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There's another thread going on this and I've recently had correspondence with John Spencer (the guy that answers all of the rules emails) on this. The current position from him is that you must buy a cloak for Telion and he does not confer stealth on the squad. However, this does make it pointless for him to have stealth. It was said that there may be a FAQ or Errata where either he loses stealth or it's conferred on the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1881115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The problem is that none of his answers are official, GW UK puts out the errata/FAQ's and their answers could be different than his. If anyone is interested he has been talking about how he comes to his decisions on Dakka Dakka. Link Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1881131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 To be 100% accurate, you're actually right. The squad DOES NOT have stealth. They do not have this special rule. However, they do get a +1 to their cover save. Why? Because Tellion has Stealth and Stealth stipulates that all of the unit's cover saves are improved by 1. Additionally, Tellion is a squad member not a character. And, as mentioned he has an ability which grants ALL of his unit a +1 save. Well, Chronos is described as an upgrade, and Tellion on the opposite page, is not.is not. The squad sergeant is not upgraded to Tellion, but replaced with Tellion. I do see your point, and probably I would be happy to go with the +1 in a friendly game. It certainly sounds like it could be a unit upgrade, but if so, why didn't they put it in the rules like they did with Chronos? In a tournament, I wouldn't be comfortable claiming a 2+ cover save due to camo cloaks and Stealth unless this is clarified. RAW is inconclusive, and even RAI could be either way. Gotta love GW's editing process... :P RoV Whoah wait?! 2+ ?!?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1881382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Camo cloaks grant stealth. If Telion did confer stealth on the unit you would still not get +2 to cover save as having stealth from two different sources doesn't mean you get it twice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150206-telion-and-scout-squads/page/2/#findComment-1881416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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