Heresy era Dark Angels

[memnochdrago]

Hello to all, Im new to your site, and let me start by saying WOW love it!!! Ive been a guard player for so long now I forgot so much about the fluff of the SM and this place brought me right back on track! thank you...

with that being said, i have the following questions and statements to make...

FOr starters every year my wife (Emperor bless her) allows me to spend some of my hard earned money on minis, I therefore start a new army each year.

2008 (While stationed in Iraq) was Lost and the damned (even though I know you cant play them in tourny, but i like the modeling side of it)

2007 INQ I went Ordo Zeno (again wheres the models and rules for that, besides form the little tidbit for deathwatch)

2006 IG Pretorians Galore got to love those little suckers in red...

2000-2006 Every other game besides GW ( I was hating for a while, tired of all the rule changes all the time)

1995 when I was a wee lad living in Portsmouth England I started off with the Dark Angels, how poorly i painted then. (I was that kid you hated running into at the local store that bugged you about everything, and thought you actually cared...)

 

for 2009 I want it to be a complete Dark Angel Company of Heresy era Marines. Now please note i didnt say Pre-heresy becuase to be honest i think that an entire company would be murder on the wallet. and at least this way i could use MK V and a few MK VI suits.

Now my questions are the following...

 

What weapons are acceptable for this time frame?

 

Who in the Dark Angels can wear robes? and what colours must they be?

 

Would it be acceptable to have a Libarian at this time? (I know in AoD whats his name distains all mutants...)

 

Would Chaplains be around and what perpose do they really serve in this time frame?

 

How many Chapters formed a Legion? do we know some of the names of these Chapters?

 

Would it be acceptable to portray different Orders from Caliban fighting within the Angels? (I know most of them had fell, already by the time the Legion arrived, but youd still have your stagglers...)

 

Since im stuck in Iraq till the end of the year, (and the local GW in Bagdad has yet to open) is the new SM Codex better for this portrayal, or DA codex?

 

My plan as of now is the Company box set for the bulk of the force...

Any and all ideas about how to set up the company are welcome...

Also any conversion tips would be also welcome, Ive already seen alot on this site that has got my brain working overtime.

 

Last but not least before anyone tells me to go read all the Horus Hersey novels, I have, plus a ton of other 40K books. the problem is there all blending together in my head now. when asked i cant tell you a Ultra marine story from a Blood Angel. So please work with me on this. I know once promted in the right direction it'll come back to me.

 

I wont start this project until I have the fluff right, theres nothing I hate more then starting a project and finding out im doing half of it wrong. also with that being said, when it does get started i promise to post pictures as i go...

 

thanks in advance

[SamaNagol]

Yes you can have Librarians. They didn't always employ psychic powers anyway.

 

Yes, they brought in the Chaplain edict before the Heresy erupted.

[Pacific81]

Welcome to the forum Memnochdrago! First of all, great decision going for a pre-heresy force! Yes I'm totally biased, but I think the whole period has got a character, an emotion, that seperates it from 40k. It also gives you a lot of manouverability in modelling and painting! :)

 

So I will help with these questions as best I can!

 

First of all I would recommend the 'Bell of Lost Souls' pre-heresy manual, which will answer alot of your questions. Its not completely perfect, but it provides a pretty useful summary and seems to be generally accepted by most gamers. You can find this here - Link

 

I'd also recommend getting hold of the 'collected visions' Horus Heresy art books. Although they only include a basic desription of events in the Heresy, the artwork in them is awesome and is great as both a reference and as inspiration!

 

What weapons are acceptable for this time frame?

 

Alot are the same.. limited numbers of multi-meltas, storm bolters (very limited), assault cannons, plasma weaponry. More of autocannons, both as a heavy weapon for devestators, terminators and vehicle mounted. There are robots as well as more 'hovering' vehicles, so landspeeders and even jet bikes. No razorbacks though, these were discovered well after the Heresy.

Who in the Dark Angels can wear robes? and what colours must they be?

 

Alot of the artwork in collected visions features marines in robes, as does 'Descent of Angels' (the Horus Heresy book dealing with the legions foundations). But, as we don't know alot more about this, I would say its down to your own discretion. There are several PH dark angels armies out there, and some have alot of robes, some very little.

 

Would it be acceptable to have a Libarian at this time? (I know in AoD whats his name distains all mutants...)

 

During the great crusade, the Emperor wasn't too happy about the use of sorcerous/psychic powers, and so passed the Nikkea Edict, which outlawed the use of sorcery within the legions. The chaplains were created at least in part to act as an agency to enforce this. However, some of the legions (specifically the thousand sons) carried on with their research and use of powers. Regarding the Dark Angels, we're told in 'Descent of Angels' that some of the characters have these powers. Again, this could be down to your own discretion as to whether you use them, there are arguments supporting both sides. On the one hand, you could say that the DA followed the Emperor's ruling to the letter, and clamped down on sorcery/psychics, or on the other hand the fact the legions were largely trusted in doing their own thing, and the distance of the Dark Angel's crusade from earth meant their behaviour would not be reported. If you do decide to field librarians though, bear in mind they are just in the legions colours, not in blue, and would be termed as 'specialists' of some kind, as 'librarians' was not a term in use until after the heresy. (This is sourced from the IA White Scars article)

 

How many Chapters formed a Legion? do we know some of the names of these Chapters?

 

Again there are different schools of thought as to exactly how big the legions were, but whats universally agreed is that for the most part they were a hell of a lot larger than the 41st milleniums chapters. Some guys on this forum have attempted to rationalise and count the number, based on half-revealed snippets in the HH books (you can find threads on this in the forum), while the 'official' (if there can be such a thing) as written by Alan Merrett (the mega brain behind the whole reincarnation of the heresy as a story) wrote that many of them are in the hundreds of thousands with the Ultramarines the largest at around 300,000. Still, I am going to leave this discussion now as otherwise there are a few members in this forum who will come down on me like a sack of s*** :lol: (please guys don't derail the thread here, but we can all agree that legions were bigger than chapters? ;) )

 

In practical terms, this makes a great and very exciting difference to the way you make a marine army. Rather than being just the 'tip' of the spear in military actions, the legions were more like self contained armies in their own right. Yes they were nearly always supported by Imperial army, but the legions comprised of many more different types of troop than are present in todays chapters. So, there were recon units, support elements (using weapons platforms etc.) and even in some cases garrison units. You could say it was because they were so successful that the legions were split into smaller chapters after the heresy - they were just too powerful, and the Imperium might not survive if any more of them got it into their heads that the Emperor should no longer be in charge :)

 

And what this also does is give you the opportunity to make alot of different type models, which you might not normally be allowed to get away with in a 41st millenium chapter!

 

Would it be acceptable to portray different Orders from Caliban fighting within the Angels? (I know most of them had fell, already by the time the Legion arrived, but youd still have your stagglers...)

 

I guess this is the soul of the Dark Angels story. Did the dark angels teeter on the edge of heresy, did some of them fall only to be redeemed? The divisions you mention are no doubt a big part of this, and there are various different accounts and theories flying about concerning what exactly happened (many of them contradictory), but I guess we will not know for sure until the follow up to 'Descent of Angels' is released!

 

Since im stuck in Iraq till the end of the year, (and the local GW in Bagdad has yet to open) is the new SM Codex better for this portrayal, or DA codex?

 

What I would give for a photo of an M1 Abrams rumbling past a GW shop window! ;) Alot of DA players are feeling hard done by with the new SM codex. My advice is make your army up as you see fit, get a feel for it, then go with whichever codex feels closest to it (don't do it the other way around).

 

My plan as of now is the Company box set for the bulk of the force...

Any and all ideas about how to set up the company are welcome...

Also any conversion tips would be also welcome, Ive already seen alot on this site that has got my brain working overtime.

 

Great idea for a start! I foudn the best thing to do is just experiment, experiement, experiment! Think about a concept or image you want to create, then mess around trying until you find something effective. I'd recommend some of the bits websites (bitsandkits.co.uk etc) and reading around some websites to 'borrow' some ideas.

 

Last but not least before anyone tells me to go read all the Horus Hersey novels, I have, plus a ton of other 40K books. the problem is there all blending together in my head now. when asked i cant tell you a Ultra marine story from a Blood Angel. So please work with me on this. I know once promted in the right direction it'll come back to me.

 

I know what you mean... there is a lot of 'pulp' around in 40k fiction. The HH books will stand out though! :P

 

I wont start this project until I have the fluff right, theres nothing I hate more then starting a project and finding out im doing half of it wrong. also with that being said, when it does get started i promise to post pictures as i go...

 

As I said, this is the great thing about pre-heresy! Unlike forces in 40k, its very very hard to go 'wrong' with pre-heresy. Yes you will get purists who will say things like "but thats a mk3 helmet not a mk2 lol", but these aren't the kind of people who will be in your gaming group appreciating the unique and emotive army you have created :)

 

Hope this helps anyway Menmoch, and good luck in creating your new army.

[memnochdrago]

Thanks for the addvice. it always helps to get input. Go figure the frist to replies come from World Eaters :pinch:

some further qustions in the form of modeling...

 

Ive seen alot of people use Choas Fant. helms with the horns filled off, has anyone tried using Bretionna knight helms?

 

When robing greenstuff on to armor is it better to file off the eagle and stuff, and apply to a smooth surface, or does it really matter?

 

I plan on making my bikers on horseback as a throw back to the knights of Caliban, which leg sets do you guys thing would work best for this? Also how would you suggest going about giving them linked bolters on a horse? I was thinking greyknights stormbolters just played as twinlinked, but if anyone has a better idea...

 

With Forgeworld brass sheets are the little chapter logos the right size for putting on shoulder pads? (Ive bought lots of stuff from them just never their brass sheets)

 

for my assualt troops would it be better to use drop pods or jump packs? I know in AoD they mention using DP at the first meeting, but form what Ive read in most of the P-H books is that ther're rare.

 

thats it for now... questionwise...

 

now let me share my vision...

 

I invision a company of Dark Angels that have a heroic Knightly feel to them. I ont want them to look Choas, and as the same time i dont want to look Imperial. I invision a throw back to a time when Knights ruled supreme. My IG I already own will work for my Angels.

 

Key part to this army though is I want to be able to play it both ways. I can be Dark Angels or a crap load of Unforgivin.

could you imagine an entire choas army of unforgivin, now that would be an epic battle for the dark angels...

 

Anything idea wise or fluff wise that you guys will think help make this vision a better reality please send...

 

thanks again

[Pacific81]

Hey Menmochdrago, yes I'm collecting PH world eaters at the moment, but I do love the imagery and background of the Dark Angels (infact I love all of them! :P )

 

I'll try and answer what questions I can!

 

Ive seen alot of people use Choas Fant. helms with the horns filled off, has anyone tried using Bretionna knight helms?

 

Chaos fantasy helms, definately, there are some pretty good Death Guard and Thousand Son conversions out there which make use of these, with a little bit of work. Britonnian helms .. hmm, I haven't seen a conversion of this which didn't remind me of Ned Kelly, but I think with a bit of work perhaps it could be made to work.

 

I plan on making my bikers on horseback as a throw back to the knights of Caliban, which leg sets do you guys thing would work best for this? Also how would you suggest going about giving them linked bolters on a horse? I was thinking greyknights stormbolters just played as twinlinked, but if anyone has a better idea...

 

This sounds like an awesome idea! Perhaps biker legs, spaced, might work well? You are going to need a big horse though, perhaps one of the WFB chaos ones, to stop it looking like a shetland pony under the marine.. I'm not sure how weapons mounted to a horse would work though, bearing in mind a galloping beast is extremely undulating and the shells would be spat all over the place! This is an interesting idea nonetheless, and also original.

 

With Forgeworld brass sheets are the little chapter logos the right size for putting on shoulder pads? (Ive bought lots of stuff from them just never their brass sheets)

 

I haven't used the brass sheets and therefore can't comment on this. Personally I just use the BoLS logo sheets and transfer paper, but then the advantage you have of an Dark Angels iconography so it makes sense to make use of this.

 

for my assualt troops would it be better to use drop pods or jump packs? I know in AoD they mention using DP at the first meeting, but form what Ive read in most of the P-H books is that ther're rare.

 

Jump packs were not common during the great crusade and heresy, a few legions had more of them than others (such as the World Eaters) but drop pods were used heavily as well as stormbirds and later on thunderhawk gunships (if you have a spare $700 lying around these are a good investment <_<). There is also the 'dreadclaw' drop pod, which featured very advanced and unexplained AI technology.. apparently alot of these were corrupted by chaos and were used by traitor forces (loyalist dreadclaws malfunctioned far more than they should have statistically, make of that what you will.. ) but the forgeworld model for these look ace, and will add a little more character to your force!

 

 

I invision a company of Dark Angels that have a heroic Knightly feel to them. I ont want them to look Choas, and as the same time i dont want to look Imperial. I invision a throw back to a time when Knights ruled supreme. My IG I already own will work for my Angels.

 

Key part to this army though is I want to be able to play it both ways. I can be Dark Angels or a crap load of Unforgivin.

could you imagine an entire choas army of unforgivin, now that would be an epic battle for the dark angels...

 

Anything idea wise or fluff wise that you guys will think help make this vision a better reality please send...

 

thanks again

 

 

This sounds like a great idea! Like I say this is the wonder of pre-heresy forces - I have heard examples of pre-heresy world eaters using the blood angel codex, the marine codex, and the chaos codex for example, there is no 'you must use this' about it. Provided you don't have an opponent who has a chip on their shoulder for some reason, you should never have any problems with using the army, especially if you are clear about what represents what.

 

If the new heresy books write that there is some kind of 'civil war' within the dark angels, as it looks likely they will, then you could portray them as either loyalist or chaos forces. Depending upon what period of the great crusade or heresy you are representing will also have a big impact upon how the force will appear. Remember that initially the legion was comprised of all Terran's and Astartes recruited from other worlds along the way to caliban - so you could argue that the 'character' of the legion, the look and feel of knightly orders, only happened after Caliban was absorbed by the crusade and El'Johnson took control of the legion.

 

But representing the 'unforgiven', or those that turned to chaos, you could quite easily include chaos troops and even daemons, as the pact that these marines have made becomes clear.

 

But, this is entirely up to you! What you have come up with so far sounds exciting though, so its a good foundation to build on.

[Vodunius]

How many Chapters formed a Legion? do we know some of the names of these Chapters?

 

As Pacific81 says, theres some debate as to actual size of legions, however for Dark Angels it really comes down to two sources: 100+ Chapters based on the Horus Heresy artbooks (according to that source minimum size is listed as 100K per legion, with legions being subdivived into "Regiments" of 1,000 marines which are known in some Legions as "Chapters") or 26 Chapters (in Angels of Darkness Astellan claims to have been one of 26 Chapter Masters, his interrogator doesn't challenge this fact, so presumably its at least in the right ball park)

 

People tend to over-play the rarity of Jump Packs, the Raptor Cult IA article mentioned that despite the rarity Horus still had tens of thousands of jump pack troops. It also mentioned that Jump Packs carried with them an elite status akin to Terminator armour (being issued to the best assault squads). So if you do go for the vanilla list it would be good to go for Vanguard Assault Squads with jump packs rather than regular Assault squads.

[memnochdrago]

Thanks again, im really looking forward to building this army. I think the best part is ill be able to tie in all my pre-exsisting armies too, to make a hella Apoco force.

 

heres what i got so far for an idea of the company set up. like i stated before i plan on using the company box set for the majority of this.

 

HQ

Cypher and command squad. (Rhino)

CPT and command squad. Termies (Landraider)

 

Elite

Veterans all terran born (Rhino) lots of Plasma

Dreadnought (im thinking the chaplin one from forgeworld it looks awsome!) again Plasma

Termies (Landraider) Reaper cannon and flamer

 

Fast

my riders as mentioned above.

Assault marines (Drop pod) chain axes and sheilds (Im thinking a Saxson raiding party type look)

Assault marines (Drop pod) chain axes and sheilds

 

Heavy

Preditor (ive got a sweet looking one i built awhile back out of spare parts from a rhino, Leman russ, and chimera)

Whirlwind (an old school one from 2nd addition if i remember correctly., of course on the new rhino chassie)

Devistators (Rhino) maybe even a razorback even though i know they werent around, but again i have an old one that is open topped and looks nothing like they do today...

 

Troops

Tactical x6 (Rhinos) flamers and auto cannons for the lot of them...

[SamaNagol]

I can tell you that Legions had Librarians before the Siege of Terra because we murdered all of ours after Istvaan :D

 

If I were you, I would personally wait until Fallen Angels comes out and consume that for a whole heap of fluff. It is sure to be great for you to use as a reference point.

[Vodunius]

d'oh, one thing I forgot to mention: I've always assumed that Chapters within a Legion are numbered rather than named, as thats how it worked according to the "Space Marine Regiments in the Horus Heresy" article in WD126.

 

Whirlwind (an old school one from 2nd addition if i remember correctly., of course on the new rhino chassie)

Just out of interest, does the metal whirlwind turret fit into the razorback/predator roof of the current plastic rhino?

[memnochdrago]

If I remember correctly its a loose fit. but it does fit. youll have to forgive my memory its been a year since i was home and Ive taken a few IED blasts to the head since then. I do remember that when i played with it on the table top you'd have to be careful when you spun it cuz it would come right off. But when set up right you wouldnt even notice. its the same way with the old razorback turret. but they do add a little somthing different to the mix then most people are use to seeing.

 

as far as mounts go for my cav im thinkin of using highelves since the horses already come with eagle wings on the heads. I also think that the high elves legs will work since there robbed. file the feet round instead of pointy and use a little green stuff, and i think i might just have SM on horseback. now i just need to figure out how to do the twin linked bolters. Im thinking there backpacks, maybe like a Preditor type thing. one over each side. not sure yet... that would leave the arms for a weapon and sheild. still in the thought stage...

What id give for a gamesworkshop in Iraq....

[memnochdrago]

Well just got off ebay where i managed to secure 65 pre-painted beaky marines. so with some greenstuff and alittle paint upon my return state side, the begining of my Dark angels will be underway. of course this will make them late heresy but thats ok with me.

 

so now the questions is whats the best way to strip the paint off of them?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

if pewter i use pinesol...i am not too sure how to strip plastic. i rarely do that.

 

wolf lord kieran

[esinhorn]

Go buy a cleaning product called Simple Green get a tub some chinese food with a lid and let them soak for a day

[memnochdrago]

YOu know i should have thought of simple green. Its the same stuff we use to clean our 50 cals and trucks with :D . works wonders there, so why not on minis. thanks...

[memnochdrago]

ok quick question on the mark VI armour with the studded pad on the left shoulder I assume you put the chapter insignia on the right. when in the 40K history did that happen. my understanding by "todays" standard the insignia is on the left side. Please correct me if im wrong, and if im not please fill me in... thanks

[Brother-Captain Temeter]

I would guess after the introduction of the Mark VII Imperator Armor. Or, for the Mark VI, post-Heresy after the Scouring, when studding the armor plates was no longer necessary, as it was a stop-gap measure to increase plate strength.

 

Either from that (hard to paint insignia over studs), or the Codex Astartes.

[memnochdrago]

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww360/1...B4/DSC00635.jpg

my first few just for starters. waiting on a bitz order to go into mass production. I have over a 100 beakies and pre heresy heads so hopefully by the end of the year ill have my company ready to roll...

[esinhorn]

The studded pad goes on the side that is facing the enemy.

Since all the models are righty everone puts it on the left.

But if you customised a lefty marine it would go on the right

 

In response to DA and robes (In my head half my unit is from Caliban and half is still the original from Terra.)

I make the Caliban ones with robes and the Terra based ones without.

 

I find brown or cream colored work the best.

[memnochdrago]

Thanks I think thats whats going to happen. I also have a bunch of rouge trader marines, so i think they'll become my terran born boyz.... Once i get my project underway ill post some more pics.