minigun762 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Has anyone noticed a trend to make Word Bearers the archetypical Chaos Legion? Dawn of War Dark Crusader has them (not sure about the Soul Storm) Squad Command has them They appear to be in the new Space Marine game They have a pair of books about them as well as a Horus Heresy novel They typically get pitted against the Ultramarines I'm not complaining or anything, in alot of ways they are the "truest" Chaos Legion (first to turn, worship Chaos as a whole yadda yadda) but I thought I'd point this out and see if others have noticed it as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Skaav Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I have to say, I did notice that, I always thought the Black Legion (being of the followers of Horus), have always been the main legion, but it seems the Word Bearers are a close second if they are edging their way to the top spot in Chaos heirarchy! :) :) :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarulek Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 That's because they ARE the true-est legion!! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust01 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Now that you mention it, I am noticing that. Well, considering the part that the WB Chaplain (forget his name) had in turning Horus, I get the impression that GW/BL is painting that legion as one of the prime movers in the WH40K universe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 Now that you mention it, I am noticing that. Well, considering the part that the WB Chaplain (forget his name) had in turning Horus, I get the impression that GW/BL is painting that legion as one of the prime movers in the WH40K universe. Erebus (I think the spelling's right). And without sounding like a fanboy, they were pretty much the catalyst for the Horus Heresy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Nothing fanboyish about it, it's fact, they were the catalyst or the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'd say that the Word Bearers are the "purest" Chaos Space Marines in terms of their background and general character. Not only were they the first to worship the Dark Gods, they were also responsible for the corruption of their brother legions, and the ONLY legion to dedicate themselves to Chaos so completely that they have no other agenda than seeing its ultimate victory over the Material Realm. That said, I would posit that the Black Legion are the "equivalent" in fluff and gaming terms of the Ultra Marines, simply because they occupy the same bracket as the general templates for their respective army lists, and favour no particular units, style of warfare etc over any other. They are also counterparts in the sense that the Ultramarines are the largest and most influential loyalist Chapter just as the Black Legion are the largest and most influential military force in the Eye of Terror and amongst the forces of chaos in general. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 They typically get pitted against the Ultramarines This might be because the Word Bearers have a special reserved hate for the Ultramarines since they were always told to be more like them whenever the Emperor would go about and smack down on them for being to slow. ;) TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varney Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The old PC game Chaos Gate also had Ultras vs. Word Bearers and cultists, just to point that out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I've always thought of the BL as the "ultramarines" of chaos. They are basicly THE standard army of the dex., the other legions are "divergent". Much like UM are the standard codex s/m army. In C:csm 3.5 BL was the codex army, the other legions got special rules. "The BL is in many ways the bases for C:csm's." from C:csm's 3.5 . Who has had the cover page of the last 2 C:csm's ? Who is on the cover of the new C:s/m's getting shot by an UM ? BL are the poster boys of chaos like UM's are the poster boys of s/m's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leethal Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 But the BL poster boys suck! When was the last time you saw them victorious? They're either fighting, or getting killed. Never victorious. You can guess that they will eventually in whatever picture, but you don't know that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 when did you see [before an ultra fan made the new sm codex] ultras win something important ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tfcdogbert Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 when did you see [before an ultra fan made the new sm codex] ultras win something important ? Tyranid invasion of Ultramar. Although that was somewhat Pyrrhic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leethal Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 when did you see [before an ultra fan made the new sm codex] ultras win something important ? The McCragge pictures :\ Or does that fall into the Ultrafan category? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The WB have been noted for painting their armor to resemble Ultramarines to mock, insult, and infiltrate. Or was this done only during the heresy? In any case the WB are more like chaos BT than chaos UM. They do have the whole zealous/ religious fanatacism/ 'we love chaos instead of the emperor' thing going on. Essentially you can take anything the BT would say and substitute the words "wytch", "pskyer", "Imperium", "Emperor", and "good" with anything chaosy such as "pigdogs", "False Emperor", "Dark Gods", "Lorgar", "chaos", "defile", ect. :) *addon* UM have their super hero, Marneus. BL have their super hero, Abbadon. They're more alike already. *another addon* I feel I might have been missing your point about the WB being the UM of chaos in terms of marketing and popularity in games and such. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 when did you see [before an ultra fan made the new sm codex] ultras win something important ? The McCragge pictures :\ Or does that fall into the Ultrafan category? oh you mean when they lost the whole 1st company after behemot smashed countless planets only to find out that kraken is coming and when they done the math how much man power do they need to stop the nids it stoped at all sm chapters and 2/3 of all human population and then they found out there is a third fleet coming and its so huge that the human psykers misinterpreted the emptiness and void as empty space . the ultras never made it to cadia , compering to other legions they didnt fight in the heresy. not to mention if they were so huge , then why even conidering that most were up north a small legion like the WB was able to stop them? Or was this done only during the heresy? that was the AL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Skaav Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I thought this topic was about the Word Bearers? It seems to be going over to Marneus and his cronies! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1750984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Has anyone noticed a trend to make Word Bearers the archetypical Chaos Legion? Dawn of War Dark Crusader has them (not sure about the Soul Storm) Squad Command has them They appear to be in the new Space Marine game They have a pair of books about them as well as a Horus Heresy novel They typically get pitted against the Ultramarines I'm not complaining or anything, in alot of ways they are the "truest" Chaos Legion (first to turn, worship Chaos as a whole yadda yadda) but I thought I'd point this out and see if others have noticed it as well. Can't belive you left the classic Chaos Gate out ;) As pointed out the Ultramarines & Word Bearer have a little hatred between each other. Other than that???? Commander Skaav Posted Today, 10:41 PM I thought this topic was about the Word Bearers? It seems to be going over to Marneus and his cronies! Yep a very good point in deed, we are a chaos fourm, though it asking why Word Bearer's vs Ultra, that all it is :lol: All further Ultramarine talk should be taken to there side of things. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Word bearers are the Black templars of Chaos. They're fanatics and they're unusual for how united and large their legion is, just like the BT's are strange for how large they are. Dark Apostles are basically evil Castellans/Marshals. And crusades are equivalent to the units that dark apostles lead. Wordbeaeres aren't posterboys because they're devout while the majority of chaos marines are in it for the glory. So Black legion better represent the average chaos marine than word bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think the Word Bearers are like the Ultramarines at all, in any sense. They are definitely not being marketed in the codex: they don't get any artwork and have only two pictures of painted models, which happen to be the same models. They are very divergent from "standard chaos tactics" if the Black Legion is to compare. They are pitted against the Ultramarines just as much as Orks are commonly pitted against Blood Angels. Classic rivalry. oh you mean when they lost the whole 1st company after behemot smashed countless planets only to find out that kraken is coming and when they done the math how much man power do they need to stop the nids it stoped at all sm chapters and 2/3 of all human population and then they found out there is a third fleet coming and its so huge that the human psykers misinterpreted the emptiness and void as empty space . the ultras never made it to cadia , compering to other legions they didnt fight in the heresy. not to mention if they were so huge , then why even conidering that most were up north a small legion like the WB was able to stop them? The lack of punctuation made that hard to understand, but here we go. Behemoth made a few planets disappear, and then were entirely halted at Macragge with a pyrrhic victory indeed. The loss of a couple companies, while tragic, is nothing to losing a chapter. The Ultramarines never made it to Cadia because they are dealing with the Tyranids, Tau, and anything else on the eastern rim, although there is an honor company including them there. Helping to hold back that tide is pretty heroic. They didn't participate in the heresy because Horus threw a bone deep into left field and the Ultramarines went chasing it to the parking lot. They were barely held up by the Word Bearers force, eventually smashing them to pieces and moving fast for Terra. There's a list of over a dozen big victories that the Ultramarines have had before the latest codex, so that has nothing to do with it at all. I also think shaping the Imperium that's lasted for 10,000 years is also a pretty hefty win, but maybe that's just me... Anyways, back to the topic. Now that I think about it, I'll go back on my original comment; they do have one thing in common. They both made the over-arching side they participate in. The Word Bearers made the forces of chaos, the Ultramarines made the Imperium (at its very basic terms). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Skaav Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Wordbeaeres aren't posterboys because they're devout while the majority of chaos marines are in it for the glory. So Black legion better represent the average chaos marine than word bearers. Well Chaos wanted to be worshipped, where as the Emperor did not, they (the Word Bearers) had no alternatives, they wanted to "worship" someone, so they of course turned to those they could serve and follow with the greatest of devotion, something they felt the Emperor shunned them for. The Black Legion on the other hand, fought/fight to put the "Warmaster" on the throne of Terra, ergo... glory. Nuff said on the BL, need I say more? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Word Bearers should be the poster boys of Chaos, instead we see alot of examples Word Bearers being used in that fashion, mostly by non-table top references (note all the video games and such), so that it would appear to a 40k Layman that Word Bearers, and not the Black Legion are the Chaos template. I will say that in the background, The Word Bearers are probably matched up better with the Black Templars, atleast as far as their zealous nature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 It is difficult to have a poster chaos legion similar to the Ultramarines being the poster chapter, because other than the Ultramarines, none of the 9 chaos legions represents the "typical" legion most of the other legions are modeled after. No chaos legion is much like the other, or acts as the role model for the others. I think the Word Bearers are chosen as the enemy in games for two reasons mainly: They are generic and they are red. What you get with the Word Bearers are evil, occult, spiky Space Marines with daemons. Exactly what you would expect from "Chaos Space Marines". The 4 cult legions deal with a specific aspect of chaos, so they are not as interresting as your average chaos space marine bad guys. The Iron Warriors and the Night Lords have a very distinct way of fighting, so unless the designers and authors would want to work with those specific constraints, they will not pick them. The Black Legion, while also "generic", would probably have to include all four cults to really do them justice, but perhaps there is not the time or the capacity to design and incorporate all possible chaos units and daemons. That would leave the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion as plain evil, occult, spiky Space Marines with daemons (the ALs guerilla style of warfare is not really a factor when you play out the encountes with them in a shooter or strategy game, where the game sets in where the contact has already been made), and red evil marines is a bit cooler than blue evil marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 i'd say that the black legion's the most powerful one but the word bearers are the purest ones. they were after all the first to turn and the rest just followed because of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 There's likely to be a better rationalisation for why Word Bearers are represented in 3rd party 40k products. In all likelihood, the Word Bearers copyright and IP was the first of the Chaos Legions to be licensed by GW to be represented in 3rd party software. As such there's an existing body of material that covers how they are usually represented in video games and the like, which saves time and effort and makes them the default choice rather than going through the hassle of both sides ensuring that the product does justice to the source material. They're also attractive for the sake of simplicity; there isn't much of a complicated back story to them beyond being generic evil marines. You wouldn't have to explain who Horus is, or why they're encased in Egyptian-inspired power armor, for example. That said, it's one explanation for why they tend to show up in video games. It doesn't mean they are the new "poster boy legion". Dawn of War, if I recall, featured the Alpha Legion rather than the Word Bearers. Winter Assault and Soulstorm too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150610-word-bearers-as-chaos-ultramarines/#findComment-1751795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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