Shrike and his special rules

[Jimbabba]

Hey people,

 

Me and my friend were just having a discussion on Shrike and any squad he joins having his infiltrate ability. Our argument is basically that if there is another independent character already in the squad, for example a Chaplain, then should the Chaplain be able to infiltrate with Shrike and the squad or not?

 

The rule quote was exactly:

 

See But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook),

 

This does state that anyone in the squad gets the rule, but my argument is that if a special character without the Infiltrate Special Rule joins a unit with it, then the unit loses the rule.

 

My friend's argument is that because it says "the models in his squad" benefit from the rule, then a chaplain that is also apart of the squad should also benefit. Similar to the way the old command squad used to include multiple independent characters (librarian, chaplain etc.) as well as normal models and all would gain the rules the main character had.

 

Thanks

 

P.S. If this is the wrong forum to post this sort of question in, please redirect me to the right one, as I'm new here. Thanks :devil:

[Sigismund Himself]

Chucking this over to Official Rules.

[- 7eAL -]

I assume the unit would lose the rule. Special characters do not usually share those rules anyway, especially not with other special characters.

[hagg]

it is pretty clear, that the other independent character is also part of the squad when he is deployed with it. and that way he also gets the infiltrate ability.

it is the same way with the chaplain making another IC's in his squad fearless.

 

~hagg

[Souchan]

Not quite, Fearless itself mentions that any IC's joined gain it and litanies is worded that all members of the squad he's joined. Infiltrate is specifically mentioned as being lost when joined by an IC, thusly they hardly work the same. I've already been pondering this very effect on warseer and still haven't come to a conclusion, it is an interesting matter. Same with Snikrots ambush ability(tagging along a megaarmoured warboss), the feel no pain granted by apothecaries and painboys, do such abilities granted to an entire unit run over to attached IC's. I like to think yes and it strikes me as logical with the FNP one's, but I find it far stickier with Shrike's infiltrate.

 

In general I currently say yes to this and make sure to check it with my opponent before getting started.

[Praeger]

I would say no, the unit looses the rule.

 

Why? Becouse Shrike's SQUAD gets the rule. Is the IC that JOINS the squad part of the squad? No, he is in addition to the squad.

 

It would work along the same way as a marine squad - if i have a squad of 9, but then add an IC to the squad, are they now 10 letting me gain a Heavy Bolter? Obviously not. The IC JOINS the squad but is not PART of the squad.

 

Hope that makes sense :rolleyes:

[SeattleDV8]

Generally the IC would lose the USR because of the "*" . Shrike's Codex rule overrules that. As it is worded Squad and not unit I agree with Praeger.

[Maligoare]

I have to disagree there, I'm afraid. The way it is worded is not the same as the Infiltrate USR is normally worded. The rule states that models in Shrike's squad gain infiltrate. If a Chaplain is attached to the squad, I think you will agree that he is then a model in Shrike's squad (regardless of whether you count him as being a proper part of the squad), and so would gain infiltrate.

[WarpSpawn]

I'm going to have to cast my vote for the other IC getting Infiltrate as well.

 

I'm basing this on the concept that an apothecary does grant FnP to ICs joining his unit. This also uses the word "squad" so, on this basis, the words "squad" and "unit" are potentially interchangeable.

 

If this is the case, Shrike's special rule can be viewed as targeting the entire unit he is with and the other IC would most definitely be considered a member of that unit. Several statements in the IC rules support the idea that the IC is a normal member of the unit, except where specified otherwise.

 

If the squad themselves naturally had infiltrate, this would clearly not confer infiltrate on any IC joining them. I think this situation is a little different to that though. It's a single model with a special rule, that targets the unit as a whole.

[Lord Marius]

I don't have the codex to hand, but does Shrike have infiltrate normally? I'm sure he does, but if not, that surely solves it.

 

If he doesn't normally get infiltrate and only confers the ability to the squad he is with, then he can't infiltrate if he joins a unit. Therefore, IF Shrike doesn't have the Infiltrate USR in his listing, he must confer it to himself (and then, logically, to other ICs in the unit).

 

If he does though, nevermind ^_^

 

BIG EDIT - Should've read the original post. Minus 10 points to me....

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Also, what Praeger said about the IC letting the squad take heavy weapons. Both parts of that happen at different times. The squad size for heavy/special weapons is counted when making the army list, whereas ICs have the choice to join units during setup (which is hopefully after the army is written out...). EDIT - Not really relevant, I know, but I think it's worth noting

 

The BBB gives clear exceptions for ICs when they do not act according to normal squad rules (combat, leaving units, some USRs), so if you ask me, they should be treated like a normal squaddie (with different gear, obviously) in other circumstances.