vs. Orks & Nids

[Jackelope King]

So after a long absence, an old friend got me playing 40k again on weekends with my vanilla marine army. He and his girlfriend play, him with a horde of orks, her with a swarm of nids. While I like to think I can hold my own in general, truth is, I need some help figuring out ways to beat these two armies:

 

Big Boss Face Puncha's Gold Teef Thiefs

The orks go pretty heavily for horde, usually deploying two 30-man mobs of slugga boyz (led by nobs with power klaws) supported by a big mob of lootaz and a big mek with a shokk attack gun. His orks usually also tend to bring backup in the form of a trukk full of burna boyz to dish out a massive number of wounds from the back of their open-topped vehicle, and a trukk with a nob squad led by the warboss (all wearing power klaws). During bigger games, he'll also deploy a picket line of grotts from one end of the table to the other to grant his entire army a 4+ cover save, a squad of bikers (6-8 bikes or thereabouts), a mob of shoota 30 shoota boyz, a small mob of rokkit boyz, and a Deff Dread if the opportunity presents itself. The lootas pick off priority targets while the boyz close and Waagh their way into melee.

 

The Not-Quite Nidzilla Nids

The nids definitely make heavy use of tricked-out monstrous creatures, especially shooty (and occasionally melee) carnifexes with 2+ armor saves and synapse and a hive tyrant with wings. She usually also brings at least a squad of shooty warriors (who thus far have proved relatively ineffective), and two broods of genestealers supported by a mix of gaunts or hormagaunts and biovores firing from the back fields. In objectives games, I tend to get overwhelmed by Gaunts who have the Without Numbers upgrade. Indeed, just about everyone in her army gets loaded up with some nice upgrades most of the time (usually increased WS and saves at least).

 

What my Marines Bring to the Field

I've been playing around with a variety of options from the new Codex, but haven't really hit on a good army list yet. I think my best bet against these armies is to hole-up and try to maximize my defensive options, shooting as much as possible while denying these armies the charge to the best of my ability. To that end, I'm considering scouts infiltrating into some ruins on the table (which we pretty much always use, so I'm confident they'll be in most games) with camo cloaks, while the ruins are reinforced during pre-game by my tech marine, who'll drop-pod down with one of my two tactical squads to help sure up the burgeoning fortress. The scouts will have 2+ cover saves while the tactical squads will have 3+.

 

In my deployment zone, I'm planning on running a pair of Vindicators driving side-by-side (which I haven't tried before), providing a moving wall for an assault squad with the company captain. The Vindicators should be able to put some big holes in either army's horde and block all line of sight to the assault squad hiding behind them, while the assault squad should provide a strong counter-attack if the enemy moves in or a good final thrust after the Vindicators have rolled in. Ideally, this attack group will push the enemy towards the fortified squads.

 

If I manage to slow the enemy onslaught, I'm then free to combat squad my tactical squads, leave the missile launchers fortified and send the two combat squads with flamers (and one accompanied by the tech marine, whose servo arm can provide an extra power fist attack at the bottom of the initiative order) to move out and fight for additional objectives.

 

I'm also going to field a pair of land speeders with typhoon missile launchers (the ability to move 12", fire the main weapon, and still get off two frag missile blasts every round against horde armies is just too good, and the flexibility to also switch-hit and take on monstrous creatures from the 'nids is fantastic). I'm not quite sure whether it's better to stick with the heavy bolters or if it's worth risking the speeders and giving them heavy flamers to get up close and personal with the ork boyz and the nids. Either way, the speeders can troubleshoot and thin out hordes for me or load up krak missiles and go hunting Carnifexes (or taking out trukks or a deff dread if needed).

 

Last, but not least, I'm filling my third drop pod with a dreadnought. It seems like a dreadnought coming in on the enemy's backfield to harass shooters like Lootaz or biovores would be very nasty, especially if the dread can get into close combat with them. I'm planning on giving the dread a heavy flamer to maximize effectiveness right away against a clustered mob of lootaz (as the ork player likes to deploy them packed on hills or in a fort). Having three pods gives me the option of either dropping two tacticals to reinforce the little fort with the scouts, or dropping a tactical for reinforcements and a dread in the backfields straight away on turn 1 to quickly deal with artillery like lootaz or biovores ASAP.

 

...

 

So that about does it. Any good ideas for how I could improve my game against nids and orks? Any changes you think would be helpful to make to my army / battle plan? I'm looking to improve my game against these two armies, and I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

[Brother_Dan'l]

It all makes sense to me.

 

I'd say take the Heavy Flamers on the Typhoons. Most of the time you are going to be moving in the 6.01-12" speed range and only firing a single gun (the missiles). But if you need that extra cleansing just before the horde hits your lines those Heavy Flamers are invaluable. Not even Nobz are going to be happy about 2 Frags and a Flamethrower. If you've got the FA slots make sure to run them as single units. That way if one bags the transport the other can slaughter the troops that jump out.

 

With the Dreadnought being a behind the lines dropper have you considered using an Ironclad? That extra point of armor plus the ability to have two heavy flamers is enough to drive most armies crazy. Pity you can't get a Venerable Ironclad but even so it should cause some serious pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth.

[tedwin183]

New poster here! Anyways, I thought I'd give you my take on facing these two armies, as I do it on a weekly basis (my local store is inundated with nid and ork players).

 

It's really simple: You WILL lose in CC with both of these armies. You have vastly superior shooting, however, and you need to make use of that.

My typical formula for success goes something like this:

Deploy cautiously (depending who goes first, this is very important): You want to maximize fire before they get to your lines, which they always will. Tactical retreat can sometimes be your friend.

Make sure you have template weapons: Whirlwinds, Thunderfire cannons, Vindicators and then ML, PC and tons bolter fire usually softens them up.

Finish off what your shooting started: I typically take assault marines, deploy them on the flanks, out of sight (which sometimes is more a mind game than anything. The opponent sometimes forgets they are even there!). Anyways, you shoot the hordes up, soften them up, then when they get down about half strength, i rush in with a full squad of assault marines or some infiltrating cc scouts. Both are cheap and thus expendable, but likely they should do the job and have plenty of guys left over to further the cause elsewhere on the battlefield.

 

A couple units you may want to toy around with, as I have found varying degrees of success with them, myself:

 

Sternguard: They are all the rage right now and rightly so. That 30" range ammo and the stuff that negates cover saves is just way too good to pass up.

Dev squads: Depending on the loadout, they can be as good as a thunderfire and more survivable.

 

Probably stay away from terminators.

Dreads will get mowed down by all the attack dice as well.

 

If they give you a hard enough time, or start doing cheesy things to win, just spam 3 whirlwinds FTW... :lol:

[Jackelope King]

It all makes sense to me.

 

I'd say take the Heavy Flamers on the Typhoons. Most of the time you are going to be moving in the 6.01-12" speed range and only firing a single gun (the missiles). But if you need that extra cleansing just before the horde hits your lines those Heavy Flamers are invaluable. Not even Nobz are going to be happy about 2 Frags and a Flamethrower. If you've got the FA slots make sure to run them as single units. That way if one bags the transport the other can slaughter the troops that jump out.

My only FA planned so far is a squad of assault marines and the speeder, so I should be fine to deploy the two speeders as individual squads. Now I just hope that they take out enough orks to avoid any sort of counter-assault.

 

With the Dreadnought being a behind the lines dropper have you considered using an Ironclad? That extra point of armor plus the ability to have two heavy flamers is enough to drive most armies crazy. Pity you can't get a Venerable Ironclad but even so it should cause some serious pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth.

I hadn't even looked at the ironclad, but now that I do, it reminds me an awful lot of my old Furioso dreadnought. I'm not sure if I can swing the points to deploy him, but if I can, this could be pretty sweet. Ironclad disembarks the drop pod, unloads a pair of heavy flamers on a mob of lootaz. My only question: since drop pods count as open-topped, can the dreadnought assault on the turn it disembarks?

 

New poster here! Anyways, I thought I'd give you my take on facing these two armies, as I do it on a weekly basis (my local store is inundated with nid and ork players).

 

It's really simple: You WILL lose in CC with both of these armies. You have vastly superior shooting, however, and you need to make use of that.

My typical formula for success goes something like this:

Deploy cautiously (depending who goes first, this is very important): You want to maximize fire before they get to your lines, which they always will. Tactical retreat can sometimes be your friend.

Make sure you have template weapons: Whirlwinds, Thunderfire cannons, Vindicators and then ML, PC and tons bolter fire usually softens them up.

Finish off what your shooting started: I typically take assault marines, deploy them on the flanks, out of sight (which sometimes is more a mind game than anything. The opponent sometimes forgets they are even there!). Anyways, you shoot the hordes up, soften them up, then when they get down about half strength, i rush in with a full squad of assault marines or some infiltrating cc scouts. Both are cheap and thus expendable, but likely they should do the job and have plenty of guys left over to further the cause elsewhere on the battlefield.

No thunderfires, but I'm a little torn between whirlwinds or vindicators. The ability to ignore cover with the whirlwinds is nice, but that S 10 large blast... that's almost too good to pass up. Which worked better for you?

 

I'm also torn on the scouts. On one hand, keeping bolters in their hot little hands and letting them spray and pray from cover alongside tacticals looks like it'd be big. Is it worth giving up the range and the extra shot every round for an extra close combat attack, especially now that the scouts are only packing WS 3?

 

A couple units you may want to toy around with, as I have found varying degrees of success with them, myself:

 

Sternguard: They are all the rage right now and rightly so. That 30" range ammo and the stuff that negates cover saves is just way too good to pass up.

Dev squads: Depending on the loadout, they can be as good as a thunderfire and more survivable.

 

Probably stay away from terminators.

Dreads will get mowed down by all the attack dice as well.

 

If they give you a hard enough time, or start doing cheesy things to win, just spam 3 whirlwinds FTW... :)

I've used and love Sternguard, but they're just so expensive. If I used 'em, I'd need to drop at least a tactical squad, and unless I brought Pedro in as well, I'd be down potentially two scoring units. I'd likely have to drop more marines than that, and that would leave me very light on bolters against hordes.

 

Devastators have the cost problem too. I'd love to pack 4 plasma cannons, but at 190 points, that again takes away two potential scoring tactical combat squads. Still, the cost isn't too much worse than a single tactical squad, and its potential to vaporize hordes is probably a little better if I have a good position for them in my deployment zone... that has possibilities.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Nothing (except Vanguard) can assault the turn they Deep Strike. It would be too horrible to imagine if I could drop a VDCF right on top of someone and assault the same turn. I like horrible. <_<

[Jackelope King]

Nothing (except Vanguard) can assault the turn they Deep Strike. It would be too horrible to imagine if I could drop a VDCF right on top of someone and assault the same turn. I like horrible. <_<

The reason I ask is because:

1. Technically, the drop pod is deep striking, and is not eligible to assault.

2. However, in every other situation, a unit disembarking from an open-top vehicle is able to assault normally (assuming there's an enemy unit in range).

 

But if the unit riding in the drop-pod counts as deep-striking too, then what you say makes sense. Thanks.

[Jackelope King]

Here's a quick question: am I better off starting up my game by camping a couple of scouts on an objective / at a strong defensive position and then reinforcing them with tacticals, or should I dump the scouts, boost my numbers in the assault squad and give those boys some flamers so they can clean up whatever's left after the vindicators do their job?

[tedwin183]

To reply to your reply earlier...

 

Personally I've had more success with a vindi. You have to remember you won't get to subtract your bs from the scatter dice if you have the WW behind cover. WW is an annoyance at best and makes your opponent worried. The vindi, however, used properly against a horde, is really pretty much a deck sweeper. If you get a bullseye or small enough dice to negate any scatter...then you stand a good chance of shaking your opponent's charge/plans of attack. The trick is to maneuver it correctly so it gets more than one round of shooting. Roll up and fire, next turn, depending on how he moved, roll back 6, fire. rinse and repeat. Take the seige shield, then you don't have to worry about grounding your vindi out.

 

As for the scouts...

 

They are TOTALLY worth taking as a cc unit for a couple reasons. First, they still go first or at least simul to most things because of their initiative. second, they can infiltrate or outflank, providing you with great flexibility for getting an annoying and pretty effective cc squad deep into the enemy formation. Lastly, the WS3 is actually not that big of a deal. Sure, a WS4 enemy is still going to get 3+ to hit on you, but you still get your 4+ you'd have with a vastly more expensive tac squad. Don't forget they can take melta bombs and all sorts of goodies that will make your opponent's life more difficult.

 

On the other hand...

 

If you like mathhammer...look at how many normal shots a shooty scout squad will have. 10 base, assuming everyone has a bolter. 5 hits and then less wounds given saves, cover, etc. Sure, you can take a HB and use a hellfire shell, but you're still scattering with a puny BS. Rather, with a cc scout squad, using infiltration and move through cover and whatnot, you'll have 31 attacks on the charge at 4+. ~16 hits ~8 wounds depending on what the enemies T is. Also cheaper than the shooty squad.

 

Not to say shooty scouts don't have their uses...just in this case, I think a couple of well positioned tac squads would make better use of bolters. Let the scouts be the heroes :D

[Jackelope King]

Yes, but close combat scouts against close combat armies like the Orks and Nids? That's what has me worried. I think I'm going to try relying on two tactical squads to fortify and give the assault squad a boost for now and see how that plays, since the assault squad will be doing "clean-up" after the vindicators.

[Mind the Gap]

As has been said CC Scouts only real weakness compared to normal Marines in combat is that they die quicker, everything else is about the same and you can still have the PF sergeant. I'd use them as cheap speed bumps (unless its kill points) to hold back parts of the horde in assault and help whittle it down while you concentrate fire power on other units.

 

Massed Plasma, Vindicators and Whirlwinds or anything with large templates would be my picks, particularly Whirlwinds as it'll negate his cover save (being ordinance, you don't need the Castellan rounds) from his grots or other screening units. Anything that can negate FnP or Cover Saves while eliminating his normal save is also vital, we've limited shots so we have to make them all count.

 

Drop pods or anything that lets you outflank or attack from the rear is golden, I'd also like to try Deathwind launchers in front of the Horde (they can be out of range if it lands behind them before it can shoot).

[Jackelope King]

Here's what I've come up with so far for 1500 point games:

 

On turn one, I'll drop pod a pair of Tactical squads (running with a flamer and a missile launcher in each) onto ruins reinforced by a tech marine in advance. One of the tactical squads is accompanied by said tech marine (for the extra power fist attack in close combat). Their job on this turn is to dig into cover and spray bolter fire on any horde units in range. While in cover, they'll enjoy a 3+ cover save (weakening the effectiveness of most anti-MEQ weapons). The drop pods are also packing Deathwind missile launchers, and since they're going to be dropping in front of the horde, they'll be acting as pillboxes, smacking the horde with a pair of S5 large blasts every round as they advance. These guys will be the Anvil.

 

From my deployment zone, two Vindicators will be rolling forward, providing a moving shield for a big 10-marine assault squad with a pair of flamers, who will be accompanied by a Chaplain as my HQ. This will by my Hammer... they'll move forward, with the Vindicators doing most of the damage until they're in range for the assault squad + chaplain to jump over the Vindicators, spray big hits with some pistol and flamer fire, then charge in to clean up what's left. Ideally, they'll come in from the other flank and press the enemy up against my Anvil force.

 

To troubleshoot, I'll also be running a pair of Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers. If a particular horde is evading my Hammer or trying to outflank me, they can swoop in, spam four Frag missile blasts at the hordes, and then fire off their heavy flamers. If I'm facing MCs from the nids, or really need to take out a dangerous Nob or Burna Trukk to force those guys to slog it out, I can fire off Krak missiles. And since I have the fast attack slots, I can run them as independent squads and have either one of them do either on any given turn. I also can see a landspeeder being useful if it flies all-out straight at a unit of Lootaz to present a threat a turn later and all but forcing the lootaz to focus on the landspeeder on their turn or suffer the consequences on the next (protecting another potentially vulnerable force from Loota fire).

 

Finally, I'll have an Ironclad Dreadnought packing a pair of Heavy Flamers waiting in a drop pod to come down on a later turn (or possibly on turn one if the situation demands it) to play hell in the back-field, threatening Lootaz with a good chance to survive (they'll only glance on a 6 and extra armor forces rerolls on results that I don't like), again denying the lootaz the chance to commit mass-slaughter of my units. He's also got the potential to drag the Nobs or Nid MCs away from the thick of the action to deal with the threat the Dreadnought poses, giving the main Hammer and Anvil more time to thin out their hordes.

 

After the two tactical squads of the Anvil do their job, they can break into Combat squads, leaving at least a few marines (one with a missile launcher) to hold the initial objective while the other combat squads (with flamers and one with the tech marine) advance to take other objectives, hopefully wading through the splattered giblets which once were a Nid or Ork horde.

 

And then for 1750 point games, I can throw in a Devastator squad with 4x Plasma cannons, which do a very respectable job against Nid MCs and an even better job against hordes of Boyz, Genestealers, and Gaunts. I should even have enough points to pass out a few extra Power Fists to make the various squads more of a threat.

[tedwin183]

I wasn't trying to say that those scouts are going to simply rush headlong into the enemy lines and stand a chance. I meant that they should be used as a cheap corollary to an assault squad. they basically get the same # of attacks, same chances to hit, they just die easier, AND you can do a bunch of neat deployment methods with them, providing more flexibility. Infiltrate them into a piece of terrain forward of your starting position and watch as he either takes the bait, and rushes his horde into them as easy pickings, only to be completely exposed to the majority of your firepower after the assault clears, or, if he's a smart player, he'll avoid the bait and move along side of it. At that point, you shoot him soft, use the assault marines and the scouts to pincer-move him and finish any of the main mass of the army off. i do this sometimes with a fully decked out vanguard squad:

 

First off, I hate the heroic intervention rule. It's got way more chance you lose the squad or mishap than you do actually being able to assault immediately after deep striking; just too risky.

 

I take them and I use their superior movement to lay traps, then move again. you can kind of funnel the masses of the hordes into your fire lanes and once a good round or two of shooting has taken place, I typically rush the vanguard in with their 40+ attacks on the charge each with a chaplain, all of them with power weapons and watch the whole squad disappear.

[sooch]

Take 3 squads of devastators, all with 4 missile launchers. That's 12 missile launchers already that are super good at killing ork horde, bringing down TMC, and basically everything else. Fill out the list with tacs in transports, with a sternguard squad for flavor.

[Mind the Gap]

I'm surprised people find missile launchers any good against orks, well frags in any case, as everybody I play against keeps his troops 2" apart from each other meaning that I can only ever hit one or two or three if I get really lucky but its usually only one with the small blast template. Kraks are great and work against a wide variety of targets but I'd rather have a Heavy Bolter against Hordes for the extra shot(s).

[Brother Nicolas]

One thing I do have to say about WW is with the choose amo this helps out alot. People have said use to vindicators the problem with these some boards you just cant carm good los for them or becuase of the cover they save everything.

 

WW have proven more times then not.

 

Right now I allways run

 

Dev squad (normaly MLs)

Vindicator

WW or Thunderfire Cannon (even tho week thunderfire cannon has proven its usefullness more times then I can count)

 

One comment on scounts.. if your facing hord dont bother with the cloacks save the points for other stuff.

[Jackelope King]

I wasn't trying to say that those scouts are going to simply rush headlong into the enemy lines and stand a chance. I meant that they should be used as a cheap corollary to an assault squad. they basically get the same # of attacks, same chances to hit, they just die easier, AND you can do a bunch of neat deployment methods with them, providing more flexibility. Infiltrate them into a piece of terrain forward of your starting position and watch as he either takes the bait, and rushes his horde into them as easy pickings, only to be completely exposed to the majority of your firepower after the assault clears, or, if he's a smart player, he'll avoid the bait and move along side of it. At that point, you shoot him soft, use the assault marines and the scouts to pincer-move him and finish any of the main mass of the army off.

Hmm. I can see this working reasonably well, but it would depend heavily on the board set-up. If I could get these guys set up somewhere that my entire army had line-of-sight to them, and also somewhere that an oncoming horde's only real options were to charge them or give up their run. And if I understand the consolidation rules correctly, it would mean that if they were wiped out or driven off, the enemy unit would have to bunch up, making them perfect targets for area attacks.

 

That could be quite interesting.

Take 3 squads of devastators, all with 4 missile launchers. That's 12 missile launchers already that are super good at killing ork horde, bringing down TMC, and basically everything else. Fill out the list with tacs in transports, with a sternguard squad for flavor.

I'm not sold on the Sternguard quite yet. They seem like they're good against infantry, but hordes can and will overwhelm them way too easily.

 

I'm surprised people find missile launchers any good against orks, well frags in any case, as everybody I play against keeps his troops 2" apart from each other meaning that I can only ever hit one or two or three if I get really lucky but its usually only one with the small blast template. Kraks are great and work against a wide variety of targets but I'd rather have a Heavy Bolter against Hordes for the extra shot(s).

I had some success using plasma cannons, especially against Nids, because the S7 shot either smears their broods of Gaunts and Genestealers or it stands a good chance of wounding their MCs. The heavy bolters I honestly never really gave too much respect too, if only because thus far in 5th Edition I've been enraptured with blast templates. Still, having devastators in a larger game acting to "sweep up" whatever's left after a Vindicator blast with Heavy Bolters could work.

 

 

One thing I do have to say about WW is with the choose amo this helps out alot. People have said use to vindicators the problem with these some boards you just cant carm good los for them or becuase of the cover they save everything.

 

WW have proven more times then not.

If I understand the ordinance rules right, cover just doesn't seem like it'll be much of an issue unless the horde is running through area terrain, because cover from ordinance weapons is determined from the center of the template. And if I've got orks and nids slowing down to crawl through some area terrain, the Vindicators have already made a pretty big impact, and they're probably getting another round of shots (along with the rest of the army) against the horde that's slowed to a crawl.

 

That and the only area terrain we have on our table are usually a few craters and a small forest.

[StormTAG]

If I understand the ordinance rules right, cover just doesn't seem like it'll be much of an issue unless the horde is running through area terrain, because cover from ordinance weapons is determined from the center of the template. And if I've got orks and nids slowing down to crawl through some area terrain, the Vindicators have already made a pretty big impact, and they're probably getting another round of shots (along with the rest of the army) against the horde that's slowed to a crawl.

 

That and the only area terrain we have on our table are usually a few craters and a small forest.

 

I believe the only time a cover save is determined by the center of the template is when a weapon is a barrage weapon. The idea being that since it's fired in such a high arc, intervening terrain wouldn't provide much help.

[Jackelope King]

I believe the only time a cover save is determined by the center of the template is when a weapon is a barrage weapon. The idea being that since it's fired in such a high arc, intervening terrain wouldn't provide much help.

Which, unless I'm badly misreading my Codex, is what the Demolisher cannon is, correct?

p 144 S10 AP2 Ord. 1, Barrage

[Mind the Gap]

I had some success using plasma cannons, especially against Nids, because the S7 shot either smears their broods of Gaunts and Genestealers or it stands a good chance of wounding their MCs. The heavy bolters I honestly never really gave too much respect too, if only because thus far in 5th Edition I've been enraptured with blast templates. Still, having devastators in a larger game acting to "sweep up" whatever's left after a Vindicator blast with Heavy Bolters could work.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take Plasma over Heavy Bolters pretty much every time due to no FnP more than anything, I'm as big fan of removing as many types of saves as possible as I am as causing as many wounds as possible.

 

I just don't think much of frags, S4 and AP6 hurts their use for me, I'd rather have the more sure wounding of a Krak and lack of most normal saves even if a frag has more chance of hitting a large horde if shot at the middle.

 

As you say a Heavy Bolter is great for cleaning up squads that have been selectively thinned by your opponent after a template or two, might be worth trialling adding in a Heavy Bolter to a Plasma based Devastator Squad for this reason.

[StormTAG]

I believe the only time a cover save is determined by the center of the template is when a weapon is a barrage weapon. The idea being that since it's fired in such a high arc, intervening terrain wouldn't provide much help.

Which, unless I'm badly misreading my Codex, is what the Demolisher cannon is, correct?

p 144 S10 AP2 Ord. 1, Barrage

 

Huh. Pg 80, S10 AP 2 Ord. 1. So there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here.

 

I'm not sure which takes precedence. :D

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Use alot of templates (Vindicators, whirlwinds, ML's whatever. One particularly nasty method VS. horde armies is to drop a bunch o' unmanned drop pods with deathwind launchers to tear the hordes up, S5 12" large blast, plus most hordes can't easily destroy a AV12 and the deathwind launchers won't hurt eachother if they scatter, they also block movement of some large creatures and crowds of enemies.

 

The Missile launcher is your best friend against Nidzilla as most players don't bother getting that many armor save upgrades when they could rather have more Fex's. If not use a lascannon on your tcticals. Sternguards are amazing, I had a test play against my friend when I first bought them, it wa just practise so we set it up like this: He had two fex's (Both 30" away) as pimped out as he wanted, I had one full squad of sternguard with a PF and combi meltas, guess who won? Yeah they're that good. Also terminators aren't bad against hordes, but they're better against nidzilla, one five man squad of assault termies with TH and SS can rip through numerous monstrous creatures.

 

Drop pod dreads are great for tying up large squads (Like those boys) because for the most part they can't even pentrate it. Give it a heavy flamer ( Or in the ironclads case two) and you'll kill bushels of them each turn, and they'll have to waste at least one turn of movement dealing with your scary sarcophogus.

[Jackelope King]

Don't get me wrong, I'd take Plasma over Heavy Bolters pretty much every time due to no FnP more than anything, I'm as big fan of removing as many types of saves as possible as I am as causing as many wounds as possible.

 

I just don't think much of frags, S4 and AP6 hurts their use for me, I'd rather have the more sure wounding of a Krak and lack of most normal saves even if a frag has more chance of hitting a large horde if shot at the middle.

 

As you say a Heavy Bolter is great for cleaning up squads that have been selectively thinned by your opponent after a template or two, might be worth trialling adding in a Heavy Bolter to a Plasma based Devastator Squad for this reason.

Which actually raises another interesting question: for 150 pts, I can field a squad of Devastators to act as "backup" for the two Vindicators, spraying either missile fire or heavy bolter fire into a horde that has been struck by a couple of big ordinance blasts. On the other hand, for 120 pts, I can field 3 attack bikes with heavy bolters. And I think on average, the bikes can not only dish out slightly more wounds and are more likely to be able to circumvent any cover that an enemy might take. Further, bikes can do a nice job of trapping units trying to fall back or joining in the assault for another 12 attacks from their squad. Wow! I really should've looked at attack bikes awhile ago!

 

Huh. Pg 80, S10 AP 2 Ord. 1. So there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here.

 

I'm not sure which takes precedence. :)

Thus far, our table has pretty much always gone by the Core Rules first, then the weapon charts in the back of the Codecies that we leave open all game. Obviously nothing official, but it looks like this'll benefit me at the next game at least :)

[Mind the Gap]

Which actually raises another interesting question: for 150 pts, I can field a squad of Devastators to act as "backup" for the two Vindicators, spraying either missile fire or heavy bolter fire into a horde that has been struck by a couple of big ordinance blasts. On the other hand, for 120 pts, I can field 3 attack bikes with heavy bolters. And I think on average, the bikes can not only dish out slightly more wounds and are more likely to be able to circumvent any cover that an enemy might take. Further, bikes can do a nice job of trapping units trying to fall back or joining in the assault for another 12 attacks from their squad. Wow! I really should've looked at attack bikes awhile ago!

I like attack bikes, but I like Land Speeders even more, for another 60 points you can double the number of heavy bolter shots compared to the Bikes. It might be only AV10 but its still a skimmer so can be hard to hit if you can keep it moving.

 

Heavy Bolter Land speeders backed up by Melta Gun Bikes is a pretty sweet combo, but not really one for Orks or 'Nids.

[Jackelope King]

I like attack bikes, but I like Land Speeders even more, for another 60 points you can double the number of heavy bolter shots compared to the Bikes. It might be only AV10 but its still a skimmer so can be hard to hit if you can keep it moving.

 

Heavy Bolter Land speeders backed up by Melta Gun Bikes is a pretty sweet combo, but not really one for Orks or 'Nids.

I'm already running a pair of landspeeders with typhoon missile launchers (those things were worth their weight in gold in my last fight against the Nids... helped sweep up two broods of genestealers, took out a carnifex, and brought the Hive Tyrant to one wound. However, I only have two landspeeders, so in terms of more mobile guns, it looks like attack bikes might find their way onto my list.

[Jackelope King]

Well, I got to try out this strategy for the first time last night. It wound up being a team game: my Marines and a genestealer-heavy Tyranid army vs. a horde of Orks and some Daemons. Some things worked really well, others not so much.

 

What Worked

1. The Ironclad. Oh my God Smilin' Joe the Happy Dreadnought was a bane on the poor ork horde. A pair of heavy flamers killed off half of the lootaz straight away, and the storm bolter on his drop pod kept picking them off turn after turn. He even managed to slaughter half of a mod of slugga boyz and immobilize a Soulgrinder, basically acting like a big black hole into which the orks and daemons poured their forces while the main of the combined Marine and Nid forces tore into the opposite flank.

 

2. The Vindicators. Two of these things advancing side by side blew big holes in whatever I pointed them at. They even managed to all but wipe out the Ork Warboss and his Nob Squad after they were all clustered together after assaulting my poor, helpless landspeeders (a nice piece of bait and well-worth the trade-up).

 

3. The Techmarine. While they didn't manage to get stuck in very well, a reinforced ruin in the center of the board became an excellent firebase when I installed one combat squad in there (with a missile launcher) and a deathwind-launching drop-pod blocking the main approach. I would've been happier if he'd reached melee with the other combat squad he'd been attached to and I got some use out of his servo arm, or if he'd been closer to my Dread when it lost its close combat weapons in melee, but I'll take it.

 

4. Flamers. Flamers of all sorts. Heavy, hand-held, what have you. Any squad which gets anywhere near the enemy can and should carry a flamer when going against hordes. Flamers just kill orks en masse.

 

5. Attack bikes. I was surprised here. Though it took them two turns to zip across the board, they were still two wounds and a pile of heavy and normal bolter shells with 5 toughness and even 2 attacks. They were the guys who finished off the mob of boyz that my dreadnought started burning and smashing. Having a librarian in the group (see below) was nice, but I probably would've preferred the extra attack bike in his place if I could do it again.

 

Mistakes I made

1. An assault squad (especially one without a Chaplain, as I had to swap mine out for a Librarian to deal with the Daemon list), and especially a light one of just 5 guys really needs to be supported. I let them run too far too fast. They were originally advancing behind the cover of the Vindicators, but on turn 2 they jumped over the tanks and wiped out the grots to clear the way for the Nids to rush in and devour the first mob of ork boyz. I kept up pressing the attack and over-extended, and after losing one marine to a power-klawed nob, bloodletters swooped into that melee and finished them off quickly. I had a combat squad of tacticals nearby, but they just weren't close enough to back the assault marines up.

 

2. Landspeeders can go anywhere, but that doesn't mean they should. Really, I love these skimmers to death. One had a multi-melta, and they managed to blow up an ork trukk and put the hurt on the nobs inside. However, once again, I overextended with them and counted too much on their mobility and firepower and not enough on how extremely fragile they are. In the end, the trade-off was probably well worth it, since losing the skimmers also meant that the nob squad that pummeled them in turn fell victim to two shots from Vindicators and then an outflanking attack from a brood of hungry genestealers. However, I really think that landspeeders work best when you can keep them zipping along the flanks and striking from great distance, hitting with frag missiles and heavy bolter fire. I think attack bikes with multi-meltas or even regular bikes with meltas will do a better tank hunting job thanks to their slightly-higher relative durability.

 

3. It was sheer luck that we won the kill point mission and the last Gaunt squad survived and that the boyz died in the numbers they did. The outflanking genestealer squad #2 flubbed their difficult terrain rolls and didn't reach the lootaz for two turns and were nearly wiped out. I probably should have put more effort into finishing the lootaz off or at least breaking them and forcing them out of their fortification before turning my attention to the mob of slugga boyz, or at last turbo-boosted my bikes over in that direction earlier. It would've made the win feel much more definitive.