Fighting Fire with Fire

[jester_prince]

I apologise if this has been mentioned before, i did search but nothing useful came up. Ive read all the Way of the Water Worrior and found it to be excelent advice. Ive gone over a few good posts here that I have found very interesting and helpful.

 

 

 

Anyway Ive been playing god knows how long (10 years +), started as most do, a spacemarine (Black Templars) player, I wanted to move onto grey knights/Inquisition, mainly because I love Fluff and because I love the GK models (and because i cant stand to not be fighting for the side of the imperium).

 

I dont take part of tournaments so Im not worried about a beardy army, I just want a theme army that will be fun to play (plus i play allot of space marine or chaos armys so im sick of rolling 4's).

 

With all the flamers flying around and no phycannons most people will probably cringe and I've not read any tactics for using them other then with phycannons. Any Advice.

 

Am I shooting myself in the foot here?

Im trying to go with a mobile assault force something like... Grand Master, 2-3 troop choices, 1-2 incinerator purgation squads, 1 grey knights terminator squad, land raider redeemer, 2-3 rhinos possibly 1-2 dreads armed with incinerators if theres enough points left over.

 

No doubt youl tell me to lose the Purgation squads and all the incinerators but im looking for a themed army not a tournament winning one but id still like some advice on using so many flamers afterall everyone likes to win.

[Ambro]

First of all congratulations on your excellent choice of army and welcome to the forum :devil:.

 

Now with your question, I find that the best way to use incinerators on grey knights is to put them in a land raider and transport them up to the enemy to unleash the emperors wrath and then finish them off in close combat. Another way is to deepstrike them in although this is nowhere near as effective as you probably arent going to land in range of a good flamer shot so your just hoping you dont get charged so you get a chance to use the flamer. If you do it this way then I recommend using the psychic power word of the emperor which means the enemy needs to pass a leadership test to assault you, it might not work that often but just the fact that if they fail they cant do anything else for the rest of the turn might discourage them. Once your behind enemy lines though you may get other chances to use the flamer so its always good to have it around.

 

The problem is if your facing assaulty armies like tyranids its better to sit back and shoot them so investing heavily in flamers is going to put you at a disadvantage against these type of armies. Also footslogging with a flamer is generally a waste as you could be laying down some storm bolter dakka instead. Also managing to get one on a dreadnought which you actually get to use in the game is tough, most people go for the long range dread with TLLC and ML so an incinerator is pretty much worthless there, if you go for the more assault type weapons though such as the multimelta and DCCW then that would be the best way to get use out of the incinerator although you'd only be able to really have one of these as they are using up a valuable heavy support slot which you would need for some real anti tank.

 

Hopefully some of the other members of the forum will be able to give you some other good tactics and I hope I haven't shattered your dream of a grey knight purgation army to badly :lol:.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Am I shooting myself in the foot here?

Im trying to go with a mobile assault force something like... Grand Master, 2-3 troop choices, 1-2 incinerator purgation squads, 1 grey knights terminator squad, land raider redeemer, 2-3 rhinos possibly 1-2 dreads armed with incinerators if theres enough points left over.

 

Just a quick question, how big an army do you plan to field? GK's at 1,000 have to be formulated a bit differently to 2,000 points or higher. So, if you can indicate how big you'd expect to play, that would be very helpful.

 

Ok, so for HQ, I generally field one of two options;

 

Grandmaster, power weapon, NFW, psychic hood

GKT w/NFW+storm bolter, GKT w/NFW+incinerator, GKT w/TH+SS

(333 points)

 

or

 

Brother-Captain, psycannon

3 x GKT's, psycannon

(254 points)

 

 

In lower point battles (1,500 or smaller), the latter option is what I would use. They lay down a lot of mobile AP4 dakka, and are half-decent in close-combat.

In larger battles (generally at least 2,000 if not higher), the Grandmaster and his friends are fantastic. Despite Aegis (which is a good special rule), you still really need a psychic hood in your army to shut down enemy psykers. The Grandmaster has 5-6 x S6 force weapon attacks to slap down enemy characters, and the squad itself has an incinerator for flaming dangerous units (like Harliequins, Genestealers, Daemonettes) before they can assault you. The TH+SS dude helps with taking down tough beasties and vehicles.

 

 

For Troops, in a pure GK army, you should have a minimum of 2 squads at 1,000 points, and a minimum of 4 at 2,000 points. As for as equipment goes, against most armies (Orks and Tyranids require a quite different kind of army build), I favour the following build;

 

Justicar, targeter, 7 x PAGK, 2 x psycannons

(276 points)

 

You'll hear people claim that psycannons are not worth it, and that the two extra bodies are a much better investment. I find that in the early stages of a battle, the extra Strength and reach of psycannons helps whittle down incoming Troops. It also lets you tackle targets you can't really damage effectively with storm bolter dakka (T6 creatures, AV11-12 vehicles). PAGK's are a shooty unit, do not engage in close-combat unless you have a high probability of success. Also, at 36" Shrouding has a real chance of denying enemy shooting (whereas at 24" it's less likely), so sniping with psycannons is a great way to keep your PAGK's alive for longer.

 

 

Against Orks and Tyranids, it's best to go for a full squad with dual incinerators, packed into Landraider Crusaders;

 

Justicar, targeter, 9 x PAGK's, 2 x incinerators

(306 points)

 

They all carry Assault weapons, so it's a simply case of drive up, shoot the Crusaders twin-assault cannon and multi-melta at the closest Monstrous Creature/Warboss/Mega-nobz, while the Hurricanes open up on other broods. The frag assault launchers ensure that even if they hide in cover you wont be penalised, and horde infantry will die horribly to a pair of heavy flamers and half a dozen storm bolters emptied into them. Them simply assault the survivors and finish them off. With your WS5 and S6 at I4, it should not be hard.

 

 

For Heavy Support, I would go with either Landraiders, Crusaders or Hellfire Dreadnoughts.

 

Landraider, extra armour, smokes

(258 points)

 

or

 

Crusader, extra armour, smokes

(263 points)

 

at least

 

(2) GK Dreadnought, twin-lascannon, missile launcher

(140 points each)

 

Don't take Purgation squads, they are totally worthless. Likewise, do not take teleport attack squads in Fast Attack, they are likewise pointless.

 

You should keep 3 things in mind when building your army;

 

1. Take only what you need; Grey Knights get a lot of great 'free' stuff, so keep upgrades to a minimum.

2. Anti-tank is always rare; Wherever possible maximise your access to long-range anti-tank (hence my suggestion of two Hellfire Dreadnoughts minimum).

3. Stay out of combat except with GKT's; Fearless is quite a double-edged sword in close-combat now, so only commit to CC if you expect to win easily. If you are unsure, just hang back and gun them down with storm bolters/psycannon.

[jester_prince]

Cheers for the input, tbh now ive thought about my army and read your replys I can see that ill probably ditch the purgation squads, they seem far to hit or miss, its just a shame cuz ill have all these extra incinerators sitting around because i dont plan on using them in the normal troop slots. Like you said long range storm bolters are more useful, still a flamer heavy army would be scary (to look at atleast) even if the rules make it practically useless.

 

TBH I didnt add the points up I just roughly estimated, I dont have the codex on me at the moment, ill more likley go for

1 Grand Master

5 GK Terminators

2x 5 Grey Knights

Land Raider Redeemer

Rhino

 

should be about 1000 points... i think :|

 

Id like to get another rhino in there somehow, I could go for brother captain but i'm a little worried about his lack of wounds. Land Raider may be a little expensive but it gives me some cover and an ability to block LoS as would the rhino, plus its all perdy so i want to use it i havnt had a chance yet ;).

 

Its turning into a standard grey knights army the more i think about it, and the more i think about it the more it makes sense tactically.

 

I could DS the termies

and mount the two GK squads in the tanks

 

or

 

mount termys in LR makes them more reliable

one GK squad in rhino

the other squad would have to foot slog it with GM

 

or

 

Brother Captain with terminator retinue in LR

and the two GK squads in a rhino each

 

Or ditch the mounts all together and spend the points on something else.

 

Can two units be mounted into the same vehicle? Ie Brother Captain (independant) and terminators.

 

tho in all these scenarios ill have very very few actual models on the table at the expense of tanks... and i dont really want to buy dreads till i got enough to buy the forge world beauty's. Im inexperienced with the tanks, ive never used a tank untill now and ive never gone up against any so I dont really have any gage to compare their effectiveness yet so points wise i have no clue as to whether their extra mobility and cover is worth the points they cost. :S I probably play 1000-2000 point battles, almost everyone ive played fields the same forces time and time again (one reason i got bored and decided to go for a change to GK).

[Marid]

Unfortunately, Rhinos can't transport GKs and LR Redeemers are not available.

 

Based on what you've said, I think the following may be close to what you are thinking of. I've tried to add incinerators where they make sense. At 1,000 there's not too much flexibility with pure GKs with a LR.

 

HQ BC (61)

T1 Justicar w/ Melta Bombs and 9x PAGK w/ 2x Incinerators (300)

T2 Justicar and 8x PAGK (250)

HS1 GK Land Raider Crusader w/ smoke (258)

HS2 GK Dreadnought w/AC, CCW w/Incinerator, and smoke (128)

 

Total = 997

 

Load the BC and the 10-man PAGK squad in the LRC. March the second squad with the Dread. Move, burn, and shoot.

[Adoremus]

TBH I didnt add the points up I just roughly estimated, I dont have the codex on me at the moment, ill more likley go for

1 Grand Master

5 GK Terminators

2x 5 Grey Knights

Land Raider Redeemer

Rhino

 

I don' think we can have Redeemer...only if your opponent would be really, really into your story that you would have to make up why you can have one if the codex will not allow you.

 

On the other hand, especially the Redeemer would fit so neatly in a Incinerator-heavy force and will not grant PA-wearing opponents an armor save!

 

I wish GW would sell Redeemer upgrade kits *sigh*

[Grand Master Tyrak]

As said before, LR Redeemers are not available.

 

Marid Posted Today, 08:19 AM

Unfortunately, Rhinos can't transport GKs

 

More than that, GKs can't take any Transports, whether they be Rhinos, Chimeras or Land Raiders. The only way GKs can get a ride is in a Heavy Support LR or LR Crusader.

[jester_prince]

What kind of moron came up with these rules :| not being able to transport grey knights in a rhino... what makes them any different to regular space marines? the rhino couldnt get more space marine... :S thats just unnatural... its...its HERESY!!!

 

And im aware the Redeemer isnt in the codex... but id be surprised if it doesn't get there, I mean surly it would be mad to deny GK a fire breathing dragon like that (tho denying GK rhinos seems like madness to me anyway so perhaps the designers are not of sound mind). Anyway I don't play tourneys only amongst friends so they will let me play a redeemer.

 

Damn why would they deny grey knights transports, alas it seems another area GK are crippled then. And it seems my dream of a mast moving wall of flame is too... bah i knew grey knights were short on support but this comes close to insanity. I hope for all our sakes when the new codex does come around... in whatever form grey knights get a bit more support a few more variants and some blasted transports.

 

Okay... I could always convert my redeemer back to a boring old crusader :lol: i never thought id say that about a crusader lol.

 

I guess I should read the codex more carefully.

 

Another option is for me not to go pure GK's i guess.

[Sceleris]

Jester

 

The reason that the Grey Knights don't get all the stuff that a regular Chapter gets is that they weren't developed as (are not) a normal chapter "only better".

 

These guys were dedicated deamon hunters who would normally only be used in limited numbers and against specific opposition. They were primarily designed as allies to another force, rather than a stand-alone force on their own (certainly initially when you could only get one squad IIRC).

 

While C:DH does allow you to field a pure GK list you have to take the rough with the smooth and thus don't get all the benefits.

[number6]

I guess I should read the codex more carefully.

 

Heh. You can say that again. Give it a second going over, and have a look at Marid's DH "gotcha" FAQ, which is a fairly comprehensive list of the surprising quirks our ancient codex has in store for people who have already moved on to the modern, 5th edition mindset.

 

FWIW, the reason GKs don't have Rhinos is part of a comprehensive plan by the designers to make a power-armoured force that doesn't look or play like Space Marines. They didn't want Space Marines of a Different Color, they wanted something truly unique. I actually think they did an excellent job. Success! Considered in the context of its development (3rd edition 40K), it's really a great piece of work. (If only GW had decided to regularly Errata the codex as the game has advanced. But that's a dead horse that I will not beat here.)

 

So, no dedicated transports. Also, superior firepower in the form of the stormbolter. Elite close combat ability with True Grit and NFWs. The shrouding to compensate for lack of transports, offering decent protection until the Knights closed to stormbolter range. And, although nowhere near as usefu nowadays in 5th edition, the ability to make many, if not most, of your GK units Fast Attack and capable of deep striking. These guys generate a constant 24" threat bubble, capable of tackling any foe on our own terms (with a bit of luck and sharp tactics, of course).

 

All of that combines to make a force with a tactical approach unique in all of 40K. You can't make this army excel at long, mid-, or short range, or in assault. It is very finely balanced, and must be wielded with care if you are to succeed. Despite the headaches of dealing with outdated rules, the models, fluff, and the unique challenges posed by running such a demanding army are what keeps us interested. Hopefully, you'll see it that way, too. :D

[jester_prince]

Its not as if they cant be in a rhino, its just the devs decided they shouldnt be in a rhino... theres no continuity, space marines are well equipped and grey knights are supposed to have even more available to them, is there any reason why they shouldnt have a rhino mount? the storm troopers have them, its not asif the rhino isnt in the codex. To me it dosnt make a lick of sense. It just gives them a little bit of shelter from shooty armys, from which i understand grey knights suffer against BECAUSE of their lack of rapid movement, which while they tried to rectify by giving the codex a "fast attack" choice, which as stated many times before is totally worthless as well due to its unreliability. Its not asif they devs limated the grey knights to being one or two units per detachment so they must have known people would take pure grey knight armies.

 

Anyway ranting over, i still look forward to playing with my grey knights whatever form they take its not asif i can do anything about the rules hopefully even if its in a few years the Inquisition will get a codex worthy of their fluff.

[jester_prince]

I guess I should read the codex more carefully.

 

Heh. You can say that again. Give it a second going over, and have a look at Marid's DH "gotcha" FAQ, which is a fairly comprehensive list of the surprising quirks our ancient codex has in store for people who have already moved on to the modern, 5th edition mindset.

 

FWIW, the reason GKs don't have Rhinos is part of a comprehensive plan by the designers to make a power-armoured force that doesn't look or play like Space Marines. They didn't want Space Marines of a Different Color, they wanted something truly unique. I actually think they did an excellent job. Success! Considered in the context of its development (3rd edition 40K), it's really a great piece of work. (If only GW had decided to regularly Errata the codex as the game has advanced. But that's a dead horse that I will not beat here.)

 

So, no dedicated transports. Also, superior firepower in the form of the stormbolter. Elite close combat ability with True Grit and NFWs. The shrouding to compensate for lack of transports, offering decent protection until the Knights closed to stormbolter range. And, although nowhere near as usefu nowadays in 5th edition, the ability to make many, if not most, of your GK units Fast Attack and capable of deep striking. These guys generate a constant 24" threat bubble, capable of tackling any foe on our own terms (with a bit of luck and sharp tactics, of course).

 

All of that combines to make a force with a tactical approach unique in all of 40K. You can't make this army excel at long, mid-, or short range, or in assault. It is very finely balanced, and must be wielded with care if you are to succeed. Despite the headaches of dealing with outdated rules, the models, fluff, and the unique challenges posed by running such a demanding army are what keeps us interested. Hopefully, you'll see it that way, too. ;)

 

 

 

Lol you do have a point or few... very well... *submits* I shall hold my complaints about rhinos, like you said, they more then make up for it in other areas. Wouldnt want to get a reputation for complaining anyway. Its only like my 3rd post or something and it seems all ive done is complain about an army that i havnt even had a chance tyo play yet :D Im still painting the majority of it up.

[Marid]

There is a lot to be said for having a SM army that is like no other. The Inquisition codexes allow amazing variety. That's not so good beginners, but it really appealed to me because I like variety. I happen to like Storm Troopers a lot. I love the RPG like flexibility of Inquisitors. Grey Knights are awesome, especially the Terminators. We don't have a lot vehicles, but we have Land Raiders. Dreadnoughts. What's not to love about a walking tank? What we need are a few tweaks to our rules. I think allowing FAGK to be scoring or allowing troop PAGKs to deep strike would help a lot. A small change that keeps the flavor but makes us modern.

 

And yes, a GK Redeemer with Incinerators sounds mighty tasty. While they are at it, give the GK LRC the option of TL Psycannons. Ah, I dream...

[Amnar]

The Grandmaster has 5-6 x S6 force weapon attacks to slap down enemy characters, and the squad itself has an incinerator for flaming dangerous units (like Harliequins, Genestealers, Daemonettes) before they can assault you.

 

Hey bud, I'm new to grey knights, but how does a GM get 5-6? Doesn't he only get 4? True grit only applies to guys in PA right?

[Wolf's Bane]

The Grandmaster has 5-6 x S6 force weapon attacks to slap down enemy characters, and the squad itself has an incinerator for flaming dangerous units (like Harliequins, Genestealers, Daemonettes) before they can assault you.

 

Hey bud, I'm new to grey knights, but how does a GM get 5-6? Doesn't he only get 4? True grit only applies to guys in PA right?

 

well NFW is a one handed weapon. If he gets a power weapon (another one-handed weapon) as is this case, he gets 4+1 attacks. If he is charging then we have 6 attacks!!!

[Amnar]

Ahhh gotcha... I was hoping I misread true grit somewhere and that terminators got it too :-P Ah well, maybe in 2011....

[benmothershaw]

With all the flamers flying around and no phycannons most people will probably cringe and I've not read any tactics for using them other then with phycannons. Any Advice.

Im trying to go with a mobile assault force something like... Grand Master, 2-3 troop choices, 1-2 incinerator purgation squads, 1 grey knights terminator squad, land raider redeemer, 2-3 rhinos possibly 1-2 dreads armed with incinerators if theres enough points left over.

 

I think fluff wise there are reasons behind them not having a rhino.

It's a chapter, so it's going to have limits/bonus' that all other chapters have.

So Grey Knights chapter is a response unit to Daemon threats (whatever other reason the codex gives)

To do so they use Deepstrike, teleporting onto the battlefield where the objective needs to be captured. IMO This army is not based around skirmish's with storm bolters.

 

Moving back on topic, Incinerators (flamers) are deadly, a GK w/incinerator inside a Land Raider can deal some serious punishment. It's perfectly usuable tactic.

Mobile Assault Force would be fine as you mentioned first, although the Purgation squad should be left at home.

Although saying that it would work as a committed assault unit, providing it has enough protection and placed right it would work despite it's low reviews.

What would make a good assault force?

Land Raider Crusader (main carrier) - this baby has hurricane bolters that can move 12" and always fire woo.

Incinerators (pre-charge kick)

GrandMaster + Retinue of terminators (centred round this squad)

Stormtroopers + rhino + meltagun (tank busters)

Land Raider + Grey knights (incinerators) (late objective grabs, assault support)

Dreadnought (battery) - Not fluffy

 

I play this assault style, lol owns nids and orks just so bad because the Land Raiders offer soo much control over the game.

I do use different objective style capturing (inq+retinue+stormtroopers) seen as afterall I get shooty guys cheap.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The thing about GKs not getting transports was they got teleportation instead. Why walk when you can ride? Why ride when you can get there in the blink of an eye? :lol:

The original FAQ stated, with regards to transports, "We wanted a different playing style for the Grey Knights, that is why they have True Grit, Storm Bolters, Deep Strike etc"