Better Chaos Water Unit

[minigun762]

While being bored at work, my mind wandered, thinking of unit combinations and such and I came across this interesting little topic. Which would work better in a Chaos Water style army, Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters or Rubrics. I'll toss this out and we'll see what the group says.

 

Example 1 Rubric Marines

9 Rubrics

1 Sorcerer, Wind of Chaos

Total: 297 points

 

Example 2 Noise Marines

9 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters

1 Champion, Power Fist, Doom Siren

Total: 300 points

 

Similarities

a.) both units have excellent firepower between 24-30" counting movement

b.) both units have dangerous template weapon

c.) both units have significant HtH capabailities including insta-killing

d.) both units cost almost identical amounts of points

 

Differences

a.) 4+ Inv Save is significant for reducing damage from MEQ killing weapons at range or HtH for Rubrics

b.) I5 is a powerful advantage in HtH but only situationally useful (against I4/I5 opponents)

c.) Increased number of attacks in HtH favors the Noise Marines

d.) No movement modifier for Noise Marines

[Captain Malachi]

I would have said the noise marines myself, the rubrics are too specialised (comparatively), NM are more well rounded.

[JamesI]

I would go with the noise marines for water style. And i say this as a Tzeentch player. The slow and purposeful rule reduces the Rubrics ability to react to whatever they may need to. Plus the Noise marines have a big advantage in the inevitable combat (faster, more attacks)

[Zealot Of Chaos]

noise marines all the way, for the post malachi made

[Askari]

Noise marines are better all around. Rubrics are pretty much a one trick pony.

[Sons of Horus]

i would have said rubrics but then the slow and purposeful rule makes them a bit worse. so go with the NMs

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Remember, noise marines shooting 3 times at a unit out of rapidfire range kills as many marines as thousand sons shooting one at units not in cover. So thousand sons can beat noise marines in killing power if the noise marines moved and the target isn't in cover, or if the thousand sons rapidfire and the unit isn't in cover. Otherwise noise marines are better shooters and better in assault, and faster. So the only reason to take thousand sons is the 4+ invul and perhaps the psychic powers but doom siren is comparable to wind so they pretty much lose there too.

[minigun762]

I'm surprised by the Noise Marine love. I figured the 4+ Inv save would have gone further, but people seem to think the increased speed, movement and attacks outweighs the protection bonus.

Interesting...

 

Here is a question for you then, what about a mixed army? Noise Marines AND Rubrics?

[voi shet magir]

invulnerable saves are terrible. Units that only have one power weapon would probably do only one armor-ignoring wound in the first place. Units with multiple power weapons are probably good enough to win the combat anyway. Against shooting, even with no cover anywhere on the board, invulnerables are not always helpful because that battlecannon can shoot at a different, non-warded unit, especially in the case of thousand sons who are no threat to battlecannon platforms.

 

In practice, rubrics can end up being hard. That is against foot infantry armies which rely on low-ap shooting to kill meqs. Noise marines are not always as good as asserted by proselytes of volume shooting or mobility. However, their abilities are all actually effective, unlike ksons. I5 is pretty much necessary against all enemies worth fighting who are not orks, and hopefully the noise marines can backpedal against orks for an extra turn.

 

I guess the test is that mono-rubrics are not a practical army, and mono-noise marines are. The biggest traits of water style are homogeneity, versatility, and tactical opacity. Kson armies cannot be homogenous, because they require supporting units for AT and fire support. They are not versatile at all, and because they are slow and specialized, there intentions must be transparent if they are going to get anything done.

[Commander Skaav]

Have to admit, I don't quite know what you mean when you use the term "Chaos Water", but still, I would say Noise Marines, mainly because of their sonic blasters, and they don't get affected by the Slow and Purposeful rule like the Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons!

[Hellios]

invulnerable saves are terrible. Units that only have one power weapon would probably do only one armor-ignoring wound in the first place. Units with multiple power weapons are probably good enough to win the combat anyway. Against shooting, even with no cover anywhere on the board, invulnerables are not always helpful because that battlecannon can shoot at a different, non-warded unit, especially in the case of thousand sons who are no threat to battlecannon platforms.

 

In practice, rubrics can end up being hard. That is against foot infantry armies which rely on low-ap shooting to kill meqs. Noise marines are not always as good as asserted by proselytes of volume shooting or mobility. However, their abilities are all actually effective, unlike ksons. I5 is pretty much necessary against all enemies worth fighting who are not orks, and hopefully the noise marines can backpedal against orks for an extra turn.

 

I guess the test is that mono-rubrics are not a practical army, and mono-noise marines are. The biggest traits of water style are homogeneity, versatility, and tactical opacity. Kson armies cannot be homogenous, because they require supporting units for AT and fire support. They are not versatile at all, and because they are slow and specialized, there intentions must be transparent if they are going to get anything done.

 

I have a Mono-rubrics army(Well sometimes I summon Daemons and I plan to get some Oblits and maybe 1kson terminators) and I do fine with 5th ed rules objective grabbing can be hard but if you mount them in a land raider that solves that (In the -=I=- section of the forum their is a water fighting tactica with grey knights mounted in raiders and if you copy and paste that with Rubrics that actually works pretty well.) and trust me "battlecannon platforms" are not a problem. The biggest problem in fact is mass infantry guard of mass orks where you don't need the invulnerable save and your AP bonus isn't needed so you basically become slower, more expensive standard marine. Also fear Deathwing.

 

Now as me and a friend were thinking of making a noise marine army for a tourny I can tell you these are great and I would use these for an all comers water army list (although as I said Thousand Sons can be used but only against meq) now Noise marines are great because there effectiveness compared rubrics doesn't really change regardless of who they are fighting and with the blast master which is still mobile they can even give you some anti-tank if you need it. Doom Sirens and power weapons will help when your going to combat and need to cut numbers down or burn people out of cover. With a sorcerer with lash of submission not only do you have your own mobility but you can reposition your enemy to better suit you. Want to get in combat with that Tau army? Move them closer... Want more time to shoot that 30 man ork mob? Move them away. The only thing I find this unit misses is really heavy punch and to solve that I had deep striking obliterators.

 

3 Oblits deepstrike within 6 of a tank (I don't have the weapon options here so sorry if I get it wrong but this is the basic idea.) 3 twin-linked melta-guns, maybe your over 6 but within 12 then 3 multi-melta shots.

 

Maybe its a unit of terminators or a wraith lord/daemon prince then how about 3 twin-linked rapid firing plasma guns? or if you have a huge pile of terminators or meqs maybe plasma cannons will do?

 

I support noise marines but don't automatically count 1ksons out!!!

[minigun762]

Have to admit, I don't quite know what you mean when you use the term "Chaos Water", but still, I would say Noise Marines, mainly because of their sonic blasters, and they don't get affected by the Slow and Purposeful rule like the Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons!

 

 

Here is the article I was referring to. Basically it talks about mobile infantry (Grey Knights) using Land Raiders to create a reactive flexible army that seeks to deny the enemy's strengths and whittle them down.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=101214

 

I personally wasn't too worried about the Slow and Purposeful rule for the Rubric Marines, mainly because the squads would have been mounted in Land Raiders, thus giving them a normal level of mobility. Hellios brings up an excellent point that against hordes of basic infantry, Orks being the most likely opponent, the Thousand Sons are just expensive basic marines. The flipside of that however is against Plasma, BattleCannons or Krak Missiles, the Noise Marines themselves are just expensive basic marines too.

[Commander Skaav]

Have to admit, I don't quite know what you mean when you use the term "Chaos Water", but still, I would say Noise Marines, mainly because of their sonic blasters, and they don't get affected by the Slow and Purposeful rule like the Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons!

 

 

Here is the article I was referring to. Basically it talks about mobile infantry (Grey Knights) using Land Raiders to create a reactive flexible army that seeks to deny the enemy's strengths and whittle them down.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=101214

 

I personally wasn't too worried about the Slow and Purposeful rule for the Rubric Marines, mainly because the squads would have been mounted in Land Raiders, thus giving them a normal level of mobility. Hellios brings up an excellent point that against hordes of basic infantry, Orks being the most likely opponent, the Thousand Sons are just expensive basic marines. The flipside of that however is against Plasma, BattleCannons or Krak Missiles, the Noise Marines themselves are just expensive basic marines too.

 

Many thanks for the clarification, makes much more sense to me now, from reading the article you've linked to, I would say I myself am very much an "Earth" player, lots of fire power, attempting to grind down the enemy.