Priests and Kill Points

[Eltnot]

So as the title suggests, are priests worth any kill points?

 

On one side, they are a separate entry in the Army List. However, they're not independent characters, and must always be attached to a squad. My gut says no, since they can't be a "unit" by themselves even when the rest of the squad is killed. However, I can see an opponent trying to argue otherwise in a tournament.

 

How are others ruling this?

[Toogeloo]

I would argue that yes they are a separate kill point. The fact that they have their own entry leans me towards it, but what I use to back up the claim is that Priests are treated essentially like a 1 man Retinue. If a Canoness chooses to take a Retinue, they must be fielded together yet still count as 2 kill points. If you choose to take a Priest, it is treated as similarly as a retinue himself. Though he is a single unit, he is fielded in conjunction with another unit.

 

That is just my take on it though. For some reason I believe I have seen this asked and answered somewhere before, but for the life of me I cannot remember where I saw it.

[Eltnot]

I see your point Toogeloo (hence me asking this question in the first place).

 

But a Canoness does have some differences. For starters, a Canoness is an independent character (some of the time she not when she's with a retinue of Celestians), and can if her squad is killed join another unit. A Priest on the other hand cannot join any other unit.

 

With single force organisation slots including more than one kill point, I feel that stating that the unit has it's own slot (which in the case of the priest, doesn't count against) is a weaker fact in which to back an argument with in relation to kill points. After all, transports bought for units don't have slots, yet they are kill points.

 

As an aside, a Canoness with a Celestian retinue doesn't count as a kill point if she dies, and her Celestians are still going as she only becomes an independent character when she is by herself, or when her retinue dies.

[the jeske]

A Priest on the other hand cannot join any other unit.

 

;) thats not the truth .

[Coppella]

Wasn't there an FAQ covering Priests not being a Kill point?

[Toogeloo]

I see your point Toogeloo (hence me asking this question in the first place).

 

But a Canoness does have some differences. For starters, a Canoness is an independent character (some of the time she not when she's with a retinue of Celestians), and can if her squad is killed join another unit. A Priest on the other hand cannot join any other unit.

 

With single force organisation slots including more than one kill point, I feel that stating that the unit has it's own slot (which in the case of the priest, doesn't count against) is a weaker fact in which to back an argument with in relation to kill points. After all, transports bought for units don't have slots, yet they are kill points.

 

As an aside, a Canoness with a Celestian retinue doesn't count as a kill point if she dies, and her Celestians are still going as she only becomes an independent character when she is by herself, or when her retinue dies.

Actually, I was comparing the Priest to the retinue, not the Canoness which gives my argument more substance. By I agree with Coppella, I am sure I have seen this asked and answered (officially) somewhere. I checked the WH FAQ and it wasn't there, maybe the IG FAQ has it.

[Eltnot]

I checked the IG FAQ and it has nothing about advisors and kill points either.

 

@ the jeske

Where does it state that a priest can join a new unit if his is killed off? I'm curious where you found that.

 

"Priests must always be attached to other units, and only one may be attached to each." - Page 27, WH Codex

"Priests are never counted as independent characters." - Page 27 WH Codex

 

"At the end of the game, each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed." - Page 91 BRB

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each." - Page 91 BRB

 

Excluding "the jeske" or someone else for that matter being able to point out where it says that priests may join a new unit:

They can never be "unit" by themselves since they MUST be attached to an existing unit, and aren't IC's. Kill points is determined by "units", not its position in a force organisation chart.

[the jeske]

well its in our version of the WH codex , I will check if the german and english versions look the same .

[march10k]

The most logical solution, since RAW doesn't answer the question, is that they are upgrade characters who do not count against the squad size cap.

[number6]

The most logical solution, since RAW doesn't answer the question, is that they are upgrade characters who do not count against the squad size cap.

This is the way I would interpret it as well. We now have multiple codexes where one or more "special" characters are merely squad upgrades, not independent or KP worthy in any way. Priests seem to work in the same fashion as these models.

 

Of course, RAW isn't 100% solid on this. Per usual, a bit of negotiation will have to be made. That said, I don't think the "default position" is that priests must be worth 1 KP and that you need to be convinced otherwise. The rules pretty clearly imply that they function for one and only one squad, and never counting as ICs is yet more supporting evidence.

[Toogeloo]

That doesn't make any sense either though, going back to the Canoness and Celestian Retinue. The Retinue is treated as an upgrade for the Celestian, or if you want to look from the other side, the Canoness is an upgrade character for the Celestians (thus untargetable). Either way, the Canoness and the Celestians are still separate units.

 

I feel that if Priests were meant to be upgrade characters, there would simply be an option on the 7 various squads with a "Buy It" option like, "The squad may add a Priest at the cost of 40 points." But that is just my interpretation.

 

 

I for one am all for Kill Point Reduction and think the Priest shouldn't count just like I think the Dedicated Transport for Dominions shouldn't count, but I wanted to present the opposing argument that can be just as easily justified.

[Auedawen]

Honestly, they aren't Independant Characters, so they aren't worth the KP. They are never declared "retinues" in their entry, so that doesn't make them a KP either. March10k has about the closest comparison available. I'd say it's hard for anyone to argue that Priests are worth a KP, they would need to be the one's providing evidence, not you as they are clearly not IC's.

 

[Edit] I suppose though, that by attaching the Priest to an IC like a Canoness you make him a retinue, not because he inherently is one but rather because he is attached to an Independant Character. If this line of thought has any merit (which i feel it does), then when the Priest is not attached to an IC he does not count as a retinue, because retinues are only applied to squads with an IC attached.

[Toogeloo]

I'm not claiming that the Priest is a retinue, I am claiming that it is bought in a similar manner as a retinue. It is a separate entry on the Army List and yet it is attached to another unit outside of it's FoC slot, similar to a retinue. A retinue is worth an extra KP and therefore I can argue why I think the priest itself could easily be an extra Kill Point as well. If it was designed to be an upgrade, the separate units that could have a priest attached would state that one is purchasable as an upgrade, or the Priest entry itself would state that it is purchased as an upgrade for the squad.

 

I can even draw a correlation outside of retinues. Dedicated Transports are a single model that are purchased to go with a squad. These are considered upgrades for the squad as the squad states it can buy one, however since the vehicle has it's own entry, it also offers a Kill Point. You are adding a model outside the squad ifrom a separate entry of the Army List in order to get another unit, I feel this makes it worth the kill point. This is just my interpretation of the inner rules workings, and I personally hate Kill Points in general, but I wanted to offer the argument of how it can possibly be seen that a Priest is an extra Kill Point.

[ArmouredWing]

I'd have to say that it comes down to this.

 

Does the priest have the wording independant character in his profile? No.

Does the priest have the word 'retinue' stated anywhere in his profile? No.

With the above 2 questions being answered with a 'no' is there any wording in the codex or the existing FAQ which states that a priest is worth an additional KP? Not that I can see.

 

There's going to be a number of things that don't seem quite right but thats what we have with an old codex. As it is if you use a priest I don't see anything that states he should be considered as an additional KP if you field him in a squad, he might be under the HQ section of the codex but he's a part of a squad and cannot be fielded alone. It may be a loophole but it's legal.

[Sceleris]

I'm with the "priests don't generate a KP" group. Treating them in a similar manner as IG advisors (which of course includes their priest entry) means they are in effected upgrade models for units, they aren't ICs, have to be in a unit and don't generate additional KPs.

[Toogeloo]

There's going to be a number of things that don't seem quite right but thats what we have with an old codex. As it is if you use a priest I don't see anything that states he should be considered as an additional KP if you field him in a squad, he might be under the HQ section of the codex but he's a part of a squad and cannot be fielded alone. It may be a loophole but it's legal.

Dedicated Transports can't just be bought alone, they too must be fielded with a Squad and yet are worth a separate Kill Point.

 

Anyways, I don't need to contribute any further to this argument; you can all see how I am making these correlations. I wish someone could find that Kill Point ruling I remember seeing for priests sometime ago. I would just field the units as if they aren't kill points and if anyone wants to argue it (like I did) maybe just roll for it. In the end, Kill Points are a terrible system anyways leaving large imbalances in play. Who is going to win in annhilation, the Imperial Guard with HQ Platoon with 6 Support Squads and 3 Infantry Platoons each with 6 total squads, or the Space Marines with the Land Raider full of 10 Termies loaded for bear with IC and the 3 Tactical Squads (*Yes it is a dramatization, but just shows how unbalanced Kill Points can be).

 

 

 

EDIT: **In case anyone was wondering, the above Kill Points dispersal is 29 Kill Points for the Guard and 6 for the Marines.

[Coppella]

I was looking through my army case and found my copy of the FAQ. It was the 3rd of 4 or 5 FAQs now. I can scan a picture if you wish.

 

Q. Priests must be taken with another squad. How many kill points is this combined unit worth?

A. 1 kill point.

I knew it was answered somewhere.

[Toogeloo]

I knew it had been ruled that way and I wasn't crazy lol. Which Website is that one found at, because I don't see it on my WH FAQ?

[Coppella]

They had it in the Questions section of our FAQ last month. They did another run of questions since than. That's what I figure, since it was like a couple days between this print out, and the current FAQ still on the GW website.

[Eltnot]

They had it in the Questions section of our FAQ last month. They did another run of questions since than. That's what I figure, since it was like a couple days between this print out, and the current FAQ still on the GW website.

That is...infuriating! Why in the Emperor's Holy Name did they remove a Question from the FAQ?!

 

If someone at GW happens across this:

LEARN TO DO DOCUMENT CONTROL!

*Wanders off grumbling*

[march10k]

Who is going to win in annhilation, the Imperial Guard with HQ Platoon with 6 Support Squads and 3 Infantry Platoons each with 6 total squads, or the Space Marines with the Land Raider full of 10 Termies loaded for bear with IC and the 3 Tactical Squads (*Yes it is a dramatization, but just shows how unbalanced Kill Points can be).

 

Forget the 29-6 KP disparity...the guard army is twice the size of the marine one, in terms of points! So let's be reasonable and say horde armies tend to have more than twice as many kill points as elite armies that are specifically designed to minimize KP, shall we? And you continue to discount the fact that having fewer kill points to risk also retards your ability to harvest kill points. If you have three units and I have nine, and we each take a KP from each other, you only have two units left on the board to my eight. I'm going to be massing an awful lot of fire against a very small number of targets. Consider also that if you take one of my units below half strength, I can have it run and hide, playing VP-denial games with it, without seriously reducing my combat effectiveness. On the other hand, if you have a deathwing army and one of your squads is down to 1-2 models, it has to stay and fight, because you simply don't have a lot of options on the board for trying to harvest my KP... KP disparity cuts both ways. The advantage is still to the smaller, more elite army, but not nearly as overwhelmingly as you seem to think, and want everyone else to think.

[Toogeloo]

Actually the argument holds plenty of water. Consider that the average Infantry Platoon is about 450 points and the HQ is 300ish so we are looking at about 1750 points (roughly). Now you got a Land Raider stuffed full of 10 Fully loaded Termies and an IC (around 1000 points roughly) and 3 Tactical Squads (around 225 each if they have Las/Plas and Power Fist or anything else they want), hell throw 3 Rhinos on em, it's still about 1750 and only 9 Kill Points.

 

Now yes you may be fielding a small amount of units, but as soon as you kill 9 Guard Squads (roughly one third of the Guard army) or even a couple of the smaller HQ squads (2 KP each) and support squads you have won the annhilation game so long as he doesn't table you, and considering how fragile Guardsmen are, kill 9 KPs worth is easy. Essentially, the Guard has to table their opponents in order to win Kill Point missions. The trade off is the hope that you are playing objective based missions in which case the Guard have 18 scoring units to the 3 of the Marines. That is the advantage of playing guard in the new edition.

[march10k]

You obviously didn't do the math on the lists he proposed:

 

HQ Platoon with 6 Support Squads

 

that's a minimum of 610 points (IIRC, support squads start at 95 points...I could be wrong, I don't know the points on mortars )

 

3 Infantry Platoons each with 6 total squads

 

With no upgrades, that's 15x60+3x40=1020

 

So if you strip the guardsmen down to lasguns and heavy bolter, you get 1630 points and 29KP.

 

 

 

Land Raider full of 10 Termies

 

what's that, 670ish, with no upgrades?

 

3 Tactical Squads

 

Again, with no upgrades, we're looking at like 500 points (I'm going to be generous and assume they're 10 man squads)?

 

So it's a comparison of a 1600 point guard army against a 1200 point marine army...hardly a fair comparison. And not including weapon upgrades is being kind. Put special and heavy weapons into each army would add maybe 100 points to the marines and 3-500 to the IG (can't avoid it for the support squads, so those points are already built in). If you made the points values equal and made command squads worth a single KP, you'd end up with guard having about one extra KP per 500 VP against MEQs, which is fair.

 

 

Now yes you may be fielding a small amount of units, but as soon as you kill 9 Guard Squads (roughly one third of the Guard army) or even a couple of the smaller HQ squads (2 KP each) and support squads you have won the annhilation game so long as he doesn't table you, and considering how fragile Guardsmen are, kill 9 KPs worth is easy.

 

Dead wrong. you have five units (I noticed that the SM don't have an HQ character, which is odd) facing 26 units. Theoreticaly, if EACH of your units killed one of mine in each of the first two turns, you win (I'll assume I can't kill the land raider). How likely is that? I outnumber you five to one. Except for the terminators in the land raider, nothing you have will live to reach my lines. The terminators will murder one of my squads and then die in a hail of lasgun fire. Or do you really think that 30 marines can advance into the teeth of 200+ lasguns and pull out a KP victory? You'll have an average of 2 models per squad make it to my lines, and if I focus my fires on one squad at at time, all six of those survivors will be in one squad. That squad will make short work of one of mine, then get shot to pieces. I say that in the example given, the SM take 2-3 KP, depending on whether the land raider ever earns one with five shots per turn. In return, the IG take four, assuming they can't kill the land raider.

 

If you made the points values equal and made command squads worth a single KP (my only real complaint about IG in KP games), you'd end up with guard having about one extra KP per 500 VP against MEQs, which is fair.

[Toogeloo]

I don't need to defend the silly little math portion since it is redundant to the argument itself, but you obviously didn't read my post and I think I should anyways. I said "A Land Raider with 10 Terminators fully loaded with an IC," the IC is assumed to be the HQ and the Terminators are as I said, assumed to be fully loaded, that is easily around 1000 points. Tacticals already come with free upgrades, but I also clarified that they can take Rhinos and bump the Kill points from 6 to 9. The two lists were written up in my head, so points wont be accurate down to the point, but they are close. The Math however is irrelevant, because the point of the argument is that I don't agree with Kill Points since you have two lists like this and the obvious advantage goes to the smaller Kill Point list.

 

And I assume you are saying that the Marines can't take out 9 squads without losing 9 of their own? That's rather ridiculous. Considering how close each squad of guard must be with that many units, it would be foolish to think that the Marines aren't going to initiate multiple assaults and take on 2 or even 3 squads at once in assault, and we all know how well the average guard squad fights in Close Combat. All the Marine player has to do is kill 9 squads (1/3 of the Guard's list) and even if the Guards kill every Marine on the table and just a Rhino survives, the Marines still win. That is the point of the argument against Kill Points, and that is why I used such extremes for Kill Points. Sure the scenario may never happen where 200 Guardsmen with no special/heavy weapons are going to face 40 heavily armed and armoured Marines, but the extreme is presented to show how the system doesn't work with such hindsight issues.

[Eltnot]

The last four posts haven't mentioned Priests or anything to do with how they work in kill point missions...