difficult question about nid cover saves

[harrytheschmuck]

this is abit difficult to understand at first but stay with it.

 

a tyrant follows the 50% cover rule as its a monsterous creature. But what if its joined buy tyrant guard? and ure behind some gaunts say?

 

my understanding is this: when the tyrant is with the guard the tyrant counts as a upgrated charater so infact the whole unit would follow the normal rules for cover saves rather than the 50% rule untill the tyrant has lost its guard at which point it returns to following the 50% rule again. so a tyrant with guard could be behind a unit of gaunts and get a 4+ cover save

[DevianID]

That is pretty much how I read it as well. As long as the majority of the unit is in cover, then the unit gets a cover save. I believe you still follow the rules for determining if the MC counts as in cover, aka 50% obscured, and then add up how many models are in cover, and if 50% or more count as in cover then the entire unit gets a cover save.

 

So one example, a tyrant with 3 guard. 2 guard are in area cover, 1 guard and the tyrant are not. Half the squad is obscured, thus the enitre squad gains the cover save.

 

Second example, the tyrant and 1 guard are in area cover, and 2 guard are not. The tyrant is not 50% obscured, so does not count as having cover, so only 25% (the one guard) is in cover thus the squad does not recieve a cover save.

[harrytheschmuck]

i was thinking when a tyrant is with tyrant guard they all follow the normal rules fro cover saves untill its just the tyrant left because when the tyrant is with the guard they make the tyrant an upgrade character for that unit?

[WarpSpawn]

The Tyrant never stops being a monstrous creature though. I reckon DevianID has it right.

[harrytheschmuck]

so its still possible to have a tyrant with 2 guard behind a unit of gaunts and get the 4+ cover save for shooting through the gaunts?

[WarpSpawn]

Bizzarre as it may be, I guess it is.

 

Either we're overlooking something or they did not think that one through fully.

[Mal]

Its true that the tyrant doesn't ever stop being a MC but while it has tyrant guard it counds as an infantry unit, meaning the 50% rule works as normal, half of the unit needs to be in cover to get the save, worked out as normal.

[WarpSpawn]

Is there any page reference for where it tells you to treat all models in a unit the same for the purpose of checking if they are in cover? I don't have the book at the mo but I was under the impression you checked for each individual model, with nothing saying you would not work it out as appropriate for their model type. It's just that it is not usually an issue as mixing model types in a unit does not happen very often.

[boreas]

There was this discussion also:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...9&hl=tyrant

 

I think a general consensus (although it wasn't clear-cut) was that if you target the unit, then all members of the unit get a cover save from area terrain. If you target the Tyrant (with Telion or a Vindicare assassin, fort example) then the 50% rule for MCs kicks in...

 

Phil

[WarpSpawn]

Not sure whether this is covered in that thread as well but the point here is how you establish cover in the event of only part of the unit being in cover.

 

As per the normal cover rules, if half or more can be considered in cover, the whole unit is in cover, regardless of what type of model they may be (as pretty sure no distinction is made about mixed units).

 

What I am suggesting here is that cover is established on a model by model basis, using the normal rules for that model, then the total number of models in the unit in cover is established.

 

This does lead to the admittedly odd situation where 2 regular models being on cover might also result in an MC being on cover, but this is frankly preferable to treating a hive tyrant as a normal infantry model himself.

[nighthawks]

I'm siding with Warp and DevianID on this one. each model must be assessed as to it's cover condition from the firer, then the unit 50% cover rule may be applied. it follows all of the rules.

 

tyrant guard are thus completely workable in 5th, if not particularly believable. it's just as silly as having LOS to a heavy weapon model only, but taking 4 failed saves on the bolter guys 5" away from him and behind a big rock.