Don't laugh, How do you play Chaos?

[northoceanbeach]

SOo.......I like how Night Lords look, and I bought them and THEN read the fluff. How do you reconcile yourself to playing and cheering your team on when they are pretty nasty? I actually did read the wiki article on them and Konrad Kurze, and it made him seem more like a necessary monster, that killed but then was sad about it. But I just read the index astartes on them and the tower of living bodies is a bit much.

 

So how do you do it? I wish I knew a way to better convey what I meant. It's just like if you're playing marines, you could cheer them on to save humanity and all, and I can see how you could play chaos that was renegades because they thought the emperor was crap or whatnot, But torturing for fun? I could do Tzeentch from what I know, making a desperate choice to stave off mutation that goes horribly wrong.

 

SO I'm looking for ideas, pre heresy?

[Hellios]

SOo.......I like how Night Lords look, and I bought them and THEN read the fluff. How do you reconcile yourself to playing and cheering your team on when they are pretty nasty? I actually did read the wiki article on them and Konrad Kurze, and it made him seem more like a necessary monster, that killed but then was sad about it. But I just read the index astartes on them and the tower of living bodies is a bit much.

 

So how do you do it? I wish I knew a way to better convey what I meant. It's just like if you're playing marines, you could cheer them on to save humanity and all, and I can see how you could play chaos that was renegades because they thought the emperor was crap or whatnot, But torturing for fun? I could do Tzeentch from what I know, making a desperate choice to stave off mutation that goes horribly wrong.

 

SO I'm looking for ideas, pre heresy?

 

Dark Eldar players manage it :), you could roll a dice for every kill you make in close combat and on a 6 that person is taken captive, then if you win after the battle you can pull those models apart with clippers so you can do the torture :) might not make you popular...

[Tfcdogbert]

What are you asking? Are you asking how we reconcile playing chaos with the evil of the side we are playing?

 

Or are you asking for a way to play chaos in which the resultant side is not so obviously evil?

[JEFF4i]

I couldn't. :(

 

I used to play Iron Warriors, and yeah, I like them a lot, but the whole "evil" thing I can't do. I've found that if I believe in my army, I am more likely to play it, and enjoy it.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I somtimes have trouble believing in my army because i've had to mix and match units to make it competitive. If i was playing the pure khorne army i'd like to be playing fluffwise i'd have no trouble :(

[Brother Nihm]

You should read Lord of the Night, by Simon Spurrier. :(

[Wulfen Lord Leo]

You should read Lord of the Night, by Simon Spurrier. :lol:

Definitly seconded.

[Dammeron]

Think of it as like playing a role as an actor; you as yourself may not necessarily think as that character thinks or believe as that character believes, but for the purposes of performing its particular part, you immerse yourself in it, imagine what it is to be existing in that character's circumstances, to think as it does. Also, I'd be very wary of characterising any of the Chaos Marines as "evil" in their own minds; after all, they genuinely believe that what they are doing is fundamentally correct, whether it be in the name of truth as in the example of the Word Bearers, in the name of righteous vengeance as in the case of The Black Legion, or simply because they need fear and suffering as a means of spiritually and/or psychologically sustaining themselves, as is the case with the Night Lords.

[Askari]

You can say your warband is a splinter group made up of some of the original nightlords before their ranks were filled with criminals. After the horus heresy they seek to bring justice to the imperium just as Konrad Curze brought justice to nocturne: by slaughtering all the criminal elements (inquisition, high lords, space marines, corrupt planetary governors, hiver scum and anyone that doesn't agree to join them) and forcing humanity to live peacefully or be destroyed by their hand. Their mission is to save humanity whether it wants to be saved or not.

[Kay]

SOo.......I like how Night Lords look, and I bought them and THEN read the fluff. How do you reconcile yourself to playing and cheering your team on when they are pretty nasty? I actually did read the wiki article on them and Konrad Kurze, and it made him seem more like a necessary monster, that killed but then was sad about it. But I just read the index astartes on them and the tower of living bodies is a bit much.

 

So how do you do it? I wish I knew a way to better convey what I meant. It's just like if you're playing marines, you could cheer them on to save humanity and all, and I can see how you could play chaos that was renegades because they thought the emperor was crap or whatnot, But torturing for fun? I could do Tzeentch from what I know, making a desperate choice to stave off mutation that goes horribly wrong.

 

SO I'm looking for ideas, pre heresy?

 

I use to have the samme problem when i played chaos. How i solved it? Try not to believe everything GW tells ya. Think about it, GM's history is written by the Imperium, so, everytime chaos is named, they are named as wretched traitors, heretic scum that must be erradicated... far from truth. Your truth.

 

Think this: The emperor DESERVED what he got. he trully abandoned his children during the great crusade, winning the laurels while other spilled their blood, not fair--> Heresy: We conquered the galaxy, so it is ours. Chaos is right, empire is wrong.

 

Concerning night lords. Konrad is one of the most interesting primarchs, he was bipolar for withing him there was PURE goodnes as well as PURE evil. he could have become the greates of primarchs or the worst nightmare of themm all. He didnt got killed, he ALLOWED the assasin to kill him, to proove that what he said was true, wich was that the Emperor was a tyrant, with no mercy, punishing failures with death while he was preaching righteousness. Thats quite brave imho.

 

Lastly, there is a quote in previous edition's chaos 'dex that may inspirate you alot, the one from an Iron warrior's general, dont know it word by word, but it comes to say, that while loyals fight for purity, for honor and for humanity, chaos dudes fight for some end that are more pure that loyalis ones. theyfight for hatred, they fight for vengance, they fight to retrieve what is righteously their, and was taken from them. And above all, they fight from themselves

 

After all this, i gotta say, that i play Ultramarines... Lots lots lots of hours thinking about this same problem you have here and believe me, now, you wouldnt want to get inside my head :o

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Well, it's not like any of the other races are good guys. Night Lords are just a little more outwardly disconcerting. And their evil (originally at least) has a purpose. Whether or not the ends justify the means is up to your point of view.

 

You should read Lord of the Night, by Simon Spurrier. :o

Definitly seconded.

 

And thirded.

[Zeller]

The Chaos are without a doubt guys that take brutal over the top. I play Word Bearers and from what I've read some of the things they do to loyalists and humans alike is just disgusting. So, I play my army with a few less undignifying things in mind such as the numbers of Tau they crush in the game 'Fire Warrior', by enjoying the chance to laugh like those crazy fellas :lol: , and by making the excessively huge numbers of people that are simply thrown into the grinder by them anonymous. They are terrible people. I would never want to be a Chaos Marine of any true chaos legion because of the lack of honor, the constant struggle for existance in a realm not meant for your kind, and the hate they just can't let go. Seriously, these guys can't take a hit to their pride. They're like freaking children.

 

Now I don't think my post makes much of any sense but if it does to you then yay! :o

 

I really don't play them while thinking of all the disgusting and barbaric things they would do in reality. I see them as a combat force with different gear, cooler armor, awesome powers, and a little more character. Besides, playing as chaos lets you vent your angry semi-evil side every so often. Playing as BA all the time is so rigid and constraining. Using my WB I feel I have more freedom.

 

I tend to try and emulate their combat style from the books and fluff versus what they do after the day is won. This is why I chose Word Bearers over other legions such as the Night Lords or Cult Legions. Terror, how do you even play a terror force when all the models can be seen by your enemy? Hence the WB with their massive infantry and terminator formations, much like the IW my other favorite, lumbering into the enemy.

 

Again...rambling. :P

[minigun762]

How do I play Chaos? With easy apparently :blink:

Seriously though, the moral standards we use today would mean crap compared to the this universe. The "good" guys have no qualms about annihilating entire planets of loyal citizens on the off chance someone might be corrupted, so you really have to put yourself in the setting.

 

The vast majority of the Legions have some little hook, something that is all too human and either forced them to Chaos or they conquered/sacrificed to stay Loyal.

Black Legion = pride, being the very best of an already elite military force. It was their Primarch above all others that was put in charge as the favored son. Their error was in simple pride. They didn't want to just be the best force under the Emperor, they thought they should rule instead of him.

Death Guard = desperation, they're hand was forced because they failed to endure the unendurable. Afterwards they became that which they feared and that which broke them.

Word Bearers = rejection, they wanted/needed to believe in something and their attempts to preach the word and magnificance of the Emperor only pissed him off.

etc etc

These are human emotions, most often in the form of a parent/child relationship. The point of this rambling is you have to look at why the Legion you're interested turned, what set them on their course of action and I think that will give you greater insight into how to play them and enjoy them and reconcile it.

 

Or just be like me and think about it this way,

If I was evil, what kind of evil would I be?

[Sons of Horus]

chaos is fun and easy to play :P it's like SM only with some mutations here and there and just five gallons of maniac per model :)

 

night lords are THE terror legion so expect a lot of lightning and similar stuff. just remember when playing night lords, try to get that scream out of your opponent.

 

BTW thousand sons are cool too ;)

[Legatus]

Yes, Night Lords are pretty "nasty", and I am not even sure that word does them any justice. I too started Night Lords before they were described in much detail. They were described as ruthless, allright, but then they got their Index Astartes article, and man, are they a bunch of mean sons of b****es.

But it's all fun, it's fantasy, you know? It's not like you are playing SS execution squads and are deriving some joy out of criminals who actually killed people and made them suffer. You play superhuman mass murderers who are a horrible foe in the distant and fictional 40K universe. You are allowed to enjoy massacring those Tau or Imperials or Orks or whatever.

But no one will blame you if you decide on an army whose morals you are more comfortable with. All traitor legions will slaughter/enslave/torture the population of whole worlds, the Night Lords mainly do it without any reason other than because they can. Perhaps you are more of a loyalist after all. My personal favourites are still the Ultramarines, and that has a lot to do with them being as noble as a chapter can be.

[northoceanbeach]

Wow, I actually thought everyone was going to make fun of me, so I'm glad others feel the same way. I agree with you, the emperor lied, this that and the other. I could take Ahriman and have him leading the thousand sons on a quest for some magical relic, I could play Slaanesh a lot of Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, almost all of them, but Khorne and Night Lords, I don't know, I'll have to think about it, torture, for no other reason but fun, diesn't sound good. They sound like the serial killer legion, just because they are sick f's. I coud get myself into it if they were more like, started out killing because they had too, to keep order and it got to them and drove them crazy, and they hated themselves for what they had become, like the part of the index astartes where Kurze is over dorn and he looks up and is both crying and hateful. I can do that, but then at the end, the palace and throne of living bodies, that's over the top.

 

Oh and about the book, I will read it, it's probably good, this summer I was visiting my brotgher and he let me borrow it to read and I like to read and I just started it, like 10 pages and it seemed like maybe gratuitous violence, like video games these days, all spark and no substance, and since I had some other really good books, I shelved it. I should go pick up a copy. I'm lucky, not every army has their own book. And I do want to play a rare army, one that noone else in my area has. I had emperor's Children, but the new dex made them unplayable, and I've been ising the NL as "shrike lords" and I love the way they play, I like and army that is:

 

Fast

Mobile

Versatile

hard hitting

resilient

lots of bodies

 

These are all these things, I like the models, my army is coming along nicely, I just haven't found a way to dig the fluff, that's the last piece. I really only want two armies, that are well painted, and well played.

[Hellios]

Wow, I actually thought everyone was going to make fun of me, so I'm glad others feel the same way. I agree with you, the emperor lied, this that and the other. I could take Ahriman and have him leading the thousand sons on a quest for some magical relic, I could play Slaanesh a lot of Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, almost all of them, but Khorne and Night Lords, I don't know, I'll have to think about it, torture, for no other reason but fun, diesn't sound good. They sound like the serial killer legion, just because they are sick f's. I coud get myself into it if they were more like, started out killing because they had too, to keep order and it got to them and drove them crazy, and they hated themselves for what they had become, like the part of the index astartes where Kurze is over dorn and he looks up and is both crying and hateful. I can do that, but then at the end, the palace and throne of living bodies, that's over the top.

 

Oh and about the book, I will read it, it's probably good, this summer I was visiting my brotgher and he let me borrow it to read and I like to read and I just started it, like 10 pages and it seemed like maybe gratuitous violence, like video games these days, all spark and no substance, and since I had some other really good books, I shelved it. I should go pick up a copy. I'm lucky, not every army has their own book. And I do want to play a rare army, one that noone else in my area has. I had emperor's Children, but the new dex made them unplayable, and I've been ising the NL as "shrike lords" and I love the way they play, I like and army that is:

 

Fast

Mobile

Versatile

hard hitting

resilient

lots of bodies

 

These are all these things, I like the models, my army is coming along nicely, I just haven't found a way to dig the fluff, that's the last piece. I really only want two armies, that are well painted, and well played.

 

 

Some people may disagree but honour and martial pride are an aspect of khorne (or at least were :'( (IMHO). So you could play a Khornate army focused on that aspect especially as berzerkers are not forced to chase the nearest thing anymore.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Don't worry, Lord of the Night isn't like that for long. That's merely him when he's not fully "revived" yet, only his instincts are really guiding him, rather than actual choices. You can kind of tell, as it only refers to Sahaal there as "the hunter", never by name.

 

And yes, I had the same problem with my Night Lords when I started. I just couldn't connect with the character, which is something I've found is necessary for me to collect an army. If I can't put myself in the HQ's head, I can't bring myself to play them. However, after reading Lord of the Night, I began to see the Night Lords in a much more sympathetic light. To explain their (original, although my Lord still follows this belief) mindset, there's a quote from Apocalypse Now that sums the Night Lords up perfectly.

 

I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.

 

It's the other thing you should watch if you want to do Night Lords. Watch Apocalypse Now. The Night Lords are heavily based off it, as well as Heart of Darkness, the original novella.

 

Don't think of the Night Lords as being overly cruel, or being sadistic. Pre-Heresy, they did the jobs noone else had the stomach to do. They did what was necessary, no matter the cost. To quote Apocalypse Now again:

In a war there are many moments for compassion and tender action. There are many moments for ruthless action - what is often called ruthless - what may in many circumstances be only clarity, seeing clearly what there is to be done and doing it, directly, quickly, awake, looking at it.

 

The Night Lords became the tame monster of the Imperium, becoming the most hated Legion (before the Heresy) so that the Imperium could thrive. When other Legions were faced with an untakeable world, that stubbornly refused to give in, they might hesitate to act, not willing to do damage to infrastructure or the population. The Night Lords saw the problems, and took the most simple way of fixing them. When you are faced with an immovable object, you meet it with irresistable force. Eventually (and I know this goes against the wording) one will break. And Marines don't break.

 

So no, the Night Lords (at least initially) weren't inhumane because they liked it, they were inhumane because they wanted the Imperium to be better. For the foes of the Emperor to be removed. Read Lord of the Night, it'll explain in more depth.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Askari Posted Today, 12:14 AM

After the horus heresy they seek to bring justice to the imperium just as Konrad Curze brought justice to nocturne:

 

Er, Nocturne is the Salamanders homeworld. Do you mean Nostramo?

[Legatus]

I could play Slaanesh a lot of Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, almost all of them, but Khorne and Night Lords, I don't know

Erm, Slaanesh has as much to do with Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll as Khorne has to do with a bout of fistycuffs or venting ones anger by slamming the door. Slaanesh is about the sickest sh*t you can imagine, but perhaps you prefer not to.

 

"Lord of the Night" was ok. The way the night Lords are presented in there does not confirm with the way they are presented in official background though. That might be because the whole book you see the Night Lords from the point of view of the protagonist, who, while himself a Night Lords, has not really much of a clue about their nature.

 

All chaos legions are nasty and evil. Since the Index Astartes articles a lot of people like to see their Legion with a bit of a romantic and tragic background, and indeed some of them where driven to chaos by unfortunate circumstances, but now they are "chaos", and that pretty much means they will all slaughter whole worlds to achieve their goals. None of them wants to restore their honour and is "misunderstood", none of them wants to "save" the human imperium from the "true bad guys" that are the emperor and the administratum. They are all monsters now, and if they come to a world, that world is fu**ed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I kinda disagree with the notion that all Chaos Marines just want to kill now. Sure, the Cult Legions are like that, and probably a fair few of the Undivided Legions, and I'd say all of the Iron Warriors. However, the Word Bearers want to free the Imperium from the shackles of their Corpse-God, not kill all of them. Of course, if they resist, which most do, then they're an enemy of Chaos. Most of the Night Lords too would fall under the category now of "I'd like some fun, here are some Imperials", but I find it hard to agree with the idea that Sahaal was the onlyNight Lord to remain faithful (ha) to the teachings of the Night Haunter. While definitely not in the majority, there would probably be some Night Lords still out there sickened by what the rest of their Legion has become.

 

So while you like your Chaos Marines to belon in the pits of hell, not all of us go along with the "pure evil" idea. After all, the great thing about 40k is there is no Good/Evil divide, as the majority of factions have elements of both. I feel it detracts from the game by lowering Chaos Marines to the 2d characterisation of "heh... lets burn guys... heheh... coz we is EVIL!!" Most Chaos Marines are either more of a "grey area" in their overall morals, and the rest aren't really there by choice. They started off in the grey area, and then were pushed the rest of the way, either by their God, or by other factors.

 

No, I can't see Chaos Marines fighting for the Imperium. I can however see them fighting for Mankind, seeking to free humanity from the Emperor, and replace him with something better.

 

 

Also, how does Sahaal not have a clue about their nature?

Didn't he admit that the Night Lords he saw there were too far gone to be saved? Really, his still wanting the Corona at the end of the book was a combination of a vague hope that there were other Night Lords out there, and a denouncement of what the present Night Lords had become. By refusing their leader the Corona, as was his right as heir, he was exiling them from the Legion, they were no longer fit to call themselves sons of Konrad Curze.

 

And yes, I do think the book fit with existing background. The Night Lords in the Index Astartes article were said to scorn the Chaos Gods, seeing worship as weak. It filled in gaps in the background, such as why Curze killed the honour guard from his own Legion when running back to Nostromo, and why the assassin's video-log shorted out. It added more depth to the Legion, rather than just "we nuke planets rather than capture them." It made the rebel Night Haunter something more thanjust a guy who went crazy.

 

Still, I think we've debated this before, so if so we'll just have to agree to disagree. You like your Chaos Marines dark, I prefer a remaining element of humanity buried underneath it.

[Brother Nihm]

Wow, I actually thought everyone was going to make fun of me, so I'm glad others feel the same way. I agree with you, the emperor lied, this that and the other. I could take Ahriman and have him leading the thousand sons on a quest for some magical relic, I could play Slaanesh a lot of Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, almost all of them, but Khorne and Night Lords, I don't know, I'll have to think about it, torture, for no other reason but fun, diesn't sound good. They sound like the serial killer legion, just because they are sick f's. I coud get myself into it if they were more like, started out killing because they had too, to keep order and it got to them and drove them crazy, and they hated themselves for what they had become, like the part of the index astartes where Kurze is over dorn and he looks up and is both crying and hateful. I can do that, but then at the end, the palace and throne of living bodies, that's over the top.

I can't help but to tease a little, but it begs the question:

Which would you rather play, a chapter that has a record of supporting of oppression, tyranny and religious indoctrination for over 10.000 years like say.. the Ultramarines or any of the other loyalist First Founding chapters. Or can you see yourself play a chapter that was modelled to act as a 'police force', to keep the peace through the use of fear, only to succumb to their own inner demons, as well as the prescient nightmare visions of their genetic father?

[Grinshanks]

I don't want to come off a little harsh, but you really shouldn't be having a crisis of concience over this. They are only plastic (or metal!) soldiers. Just remind yourself that its not real lol!

 

That said, storyline wise, you're buggered. EVERYONE in 40k is bad to some extent.

 

In the dark future of the 41st millenium there are no good guys, only different shades of bad.

[Captain Malachi]

In the dark future of the 41st millenium there are no good guys, only different shades of bad.

 

Quoted for truth. I say go with Askaris idea that they are the original night lords and aren't just in it for the torture.

[minigun762]

Thinking about the Night Lords, if you aren't a fan of the really hardcore nasty nature of them, you can always paint them in the light of the predator or the Hunter.

Of all the Legions, with the possible exception of the Space Wolves, the Night Lords seem the most like the stealthy animal, slinking through the shadows to pounce on the unsuspecting for the kill before fleeing into the darkness again.