Don't laugh, How do you play Chaos?

[Legatus]

However, the Word Bearers want to free the Imperium from the shackles of their Corpse-God, not kill all of them. Of course, if they resist, which most do, then they're an enemy of Chaos.

Yeah, why do they resist... ^_^ The chaosgods are going to be disappointed when they find out that the Word Bearers really wanted to save the imperium, and are not really devoted followers at all...

[Lord_Caerolion]

Why would they be displeased? The Chaos Gods don't want humanity wiped out, they want it converted. So that kinda makes the Word Bearers pretty devoted to the Chaos Gods plans. Give me an example where it says the Chaos Gods want humanity wiped out, not just the Emperor.

[Legatus]

Yes, to be fair, only Khorne wants to wipe out everything. Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh would only make their lives hell.

[Lay]

@Lord_Caerolion

His point is that the WB are not in it with the best intentions for humanity, but for Chaos.

[Kay]

Wow, I actually thought everyone was going to make fun of me, so I'm glad others feel the same way. I agree with you, the emperor lied, this that and the other. I could take Ahriman and have him leading the thousand sons on a quest for some magical relic, I could play Slaanesh a lot of Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, almost all of them, but Khorne and Night Lords, I don't know, I'll have to think about it, torture, for no other reason but fun, diesn't sound good. They sound like the serial killer legion, just because they are sick f's. I coud get myself into it if they were more like, started out killing because they had too, to keep order and it got to them and drove them crazy, and they hated themselves for what they had become, like the part of the index astartes where Kurze is over dorn and he looks up and is both crying and hateful. I can do that, but then at the end, the palace and throne of living bodies, that's over the top.

I can't help but to tease a little, but it begs the question:

Which would you rather play, a chapter that has a record of supporting of oppression, tyranny and religious indoctrination for over 10.000 years like say.. the Ultramarines or any of the other loyalist First Founding chapters. Or can you see yourself play a chapter that was modelled to act as a 'police force', to keep the peace through the use of fear, only to succumb to their own inner demons, as well as the prescient nightmare visions of their genetic father?

Thats not 100% true. While i may agree with "other founding chaters" i have to disagree on the Ultramarines part. Ultramar is a "kindgdom" known cuz their habitants live in a perfect State. No Tyrants are known there, because tyrants are what Ultramarines detest the most (guillimans "father" was killed by one) Ultramar is a model of how every civilization on galaxy should be, prosper, peaceful, respectful, every citizen in any world within Ultramar are free, (always that they stay loyal to the emperor)

Yes, to be fair, only Khorne wants to wipe out everything. Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh would only make their lives hell.

Again, i disagree, khorne does not want to wipe out everything. He wants combat. Khorne, besides of being the God of War, is the god of COMBAT and martial pride. Khorne is usually confused with a maniac, but he isnt. he is a warrior, nd as such, he searchs for the most worthy adversary available, and if he is worthy enough, he will pay respect... after chopping his head off, ofc xD

BACK TO TOPIC.

That quoting from apocalypse now describes 100% what noght lords are. Try to think Night lords are an Army of Batmans. A small elite, VERY mobile force. striking from the shadow, totally unespected, inflicting terror in the enemy's heart, and leaving nothing but corpses.

Try not too use many bodies in your army, keep it elite, compact. Do not include any demons, nor any form of demonic possesion (DP, Demonic possesion for transports, possesed marines... etc) and try not to mark your units to any god, because Night Lords reject ChaosGods. They do not workship any of them. Ypu can give them The Undivided Chaos, (not calling it that way) to show they are seasoned veterans, wo feel no pitty, remorse or fear

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

His point is that the WB are not in it with the best intentions for humanity, but for Chaos.

 

Unless they think their preaching of the Dark Faith is in the best interest of humanity. :tu:

[ant7]

I realize that they are only plastic little men but I understand his quandry. If fluff is important to you and you can't get into the fluff then you won't have fun playing the army. I definately don't believe that all chaos marines are pure evil and enjoy clubbing baby seals for fun. Look at some of the descriptions of some of the renegade chapters. I know I read about one, maybe the "Steel Cobras" or something like that. They turned to chaos after they were found to be "lacking" by an Inquisitor so they moved the inhabitants of their homeworld to a water world where they built caverns under ammonia seas to hide out. I mean look, the loyalists always complain that chaos has given itself over to the warp entities but they use that very same stuff of the imperium with their librarians. They keep the Emperor alive by murdering thousands of psykers. Hell the Emperor is a warp entity himself.

I created my own chaos marine renegade chapter and I don't see them as being 100% pure evil. They were deemed heretics when an inquisitor found some of their homeworld's rituals were not right and proper. So they killed him and his retinue and the forces sent against them, voila, renegade marines. So now they use chaos to supplement the support they used to get from the imperium. I feel they use chaos as a tool not worship it. So everybody has a different view of chaos just make up something that feels good to you.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Imperialis_Dominatus stated my point about the Word Bearers more clearly. They think that the Chaos Gods are what's best for humanity.

 

People need to remember that the Chaos Gods embody beneficial emotions as well as merely negative. Khorne isn't always about hacking peoples heads off, although thats how GW mainly shows him, so little Jimmy can understand. Tzeentch is about hope and ambition, so isn't all negative. Nurgle is about defiance as well as sorrow. Slaanesh is about aesthetics and platonic love as much as She is about perversion and obsessiveness.

Don't think that just because the Chaos Gods have domain somewhere it instantly becomes death for everyone who lives there. I can imagine a Tzeentch or Slaanesh-held world to be pretty pleasant, with only the most fanatical cultists participating in the more extreme rites. The rest of the population would follow the more "civilian" tenets of their God. After all, there's a quote from the Liber Slaanesh that goes:

Would it be so difficult to embrace a god that asks you only to take greater pleasure in the wine you drink, or the food you eat?

 

People get too obsessed with taking the Chaos Gods to their extremes, and forget that "lesser" versions of worshipping them exist. Not all Slaanesh worshippers are raging sadomasochists, some, in fact most, are poets or artists. Not all Nurgle worshippers are bloated pusbags, most are simply those who want to survive amidst the hardship. Not all Khorne worshippers are insane maniacs, most are those who hold honour in high regard. Not all Tzeentch worshippers are crazy schemers, most are just scholars.

 

To put it another way, to view the Chaos Gods as purely evil, merely by examining those more extreme worshippers they have, I can make the same claim with the Emperor, pointing to the millions of crazy fanatics and zealots, who wear nothing but parchment detailing his words, or onof his saints, and continually scourge themseves with flails. You can't tell me that by looking at those worshippers you can see the Emperor as beneficial? I can point to the Machine God (an aspect of the Emperor, to some), who's worshippers see no value in emotions or humanity (the quality, not the race), seeing only cold logic as useful, and as such replace their flesh with mechanics, and their the emotional part of their brain with computers.

So the Emperor, the 'saviour of the Imperium', 'source of all good', and so on, can also be seen as a God who encourages self-harm as a form of worship, who promotes blind faith in all things, and wo cannot bear for anything different to exist. Of course, the Imperium is mostly comprised of 'moderate' worshippers, who don't take his worship as far as that.

 

In other words, don't judge a God by their extremists. That argument holds true now, it does in 40k.

[Dammeron]

"...he (the Emperor) failed to see that what HUMANITY required above all else was religious guidance..."

 

- Quoted from the Index Astartes Word Bearers in reference to their pathological dedication to Chaos.

[Schultzhoffen]

A really interesting topic.

 

A few thoughts: I thought that the Emperor was not a god, merely a supreme example of Humanity. In fact, he was anti-religion and pro-science. I think we can safely say he would not be impressed by the worship that's built up around him.

 

The other thought is that while the Imperium is evil to a great extent, the fact is that it brings stability, peace and safety to most of its Citizens. It does try and protect its people (although the motto "The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number" seems to apply, hence Terminatus, etc...). Yes, it is Evil to wipe out all those cuddly ETs out there but bear in mind most of the Xenos encountered seem to want to eat/enslave/kill members of the Human Race, so possibly one can forgive the Imperium for its paranoia to some extent.

 

The problem with Chaos is not that it is Evil (!). The problem is that it is Chaos, ie, anarchy, the breaking down of Order, therefore only those in power may have any quality of life (HA!), the rest may be mere slaves (ALL of them). Under the Imperium, many worlds are Hellholes, but many worlds are not and citizens actually have some quality of life.

 

Take a real life example. Compare the Imperium to Nazi Germany or Communist Russia. While monstrosities are perpetuated, "desirable" Citizens (in this case, humans) have some kind of life (admittedly not a fully free one). Although, I'd say the Imperium is far better than either of those regimes as some planets/systems have a high quality of life and freedom (think of Ultramar).

 

Chaos represents Zimbabwe to me. Everyone is in hell. Period. Everything has gone to sh#t. The only one's who benefit are the head honchos. Terror, torture, violence, anarchy, cannibalism, etc, is rampant. Ordinary people live like worms, slaves (or worse). No exceptions. In fact, Zimbabwe is way too nice to be compared to a Chaos run planet (seriously, would YOU want a Plague Bearer or a Bloodletter as a neighbour....no, don't even go there with regards to Daemonettes of Slaanesh...).

 

Chaos IS about extremism. I don't think any Chaos god (as capricious, evil and untrustworthy as any of them are) would accept anything less than complete subservience from their worshippers. Sure, one may start on the road without being dominated by said desires, etc, but sooner or later you are a mere "Slave to Chaos". Note the use of the word "Slave". Not partner, not ruler, not buddies. Slaves, pure and simple. Only a fool would think otherwise. These are NOT deities that preach love, forgiveness and "give peace a chance". I can't see their worshippers hugging trees and singing "Kumbaya, my Lord..."

 

These deities want total subservience and domination.

 

Think about it. You can fight a corrupt government (ie The Imperium) and overthrow it, raise up something good. No way you can overthrow an evil god(s).

 

Abaddon's motto seems to be "Let the Galaxy Burn". Can we REALLY trust him with brighter future?

 

Maybe the Imperium ain't so bad, after all, when you consider the alternative?

 

Now, I'm off to go and sing "Let's all gather at the River..."

[Brother Nihm]

Wow, I actually thought everyone was going to make fun of me, so I'm glad others feel the same way. I agree with you, the emperor lied, this that and the other. I could take Ahriman and have him leading the thousand sons on a quest for some magical relic, I could play Slaanesh a lot of Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll, almost all of them, but Khorne and Night Lords, I don't know, I'll have to think about it, torture, for no other reason but fun, diesn't sound good. They sound like the serial killer legion, just because they are sick f's. I coud get myself into it if they were more like, started out killing because they had too, to keep order and it got to them and drove them crazy, and they hated themselves for what they had become, like the part of the index astartes where Kurze is over dorn and he looks up and is both crying and hateful. I can do that, but then at the end, the palace and throne of living bodies, that's over the top.

I can't help but to tease a little, but it begs the question:

Which would you rather play, a chapter that has a record of supporting of oppression, tyranny and religious indoctrination for over 10.000 years like say.. the Ultramarines or any of the other loyalist First Founding chapters. Or can you see yourself play a chapter that was modelled to act as a 'police force', to keep the peace through the use of fear, only to succumb to their own inner demons, as well as the prescient nightmare visions of their genetic father?

Thats not 100% true. While i may agree with "other founding chaters" i have to disagree on the Ultramarines part. Ultramar is a "kindgdom" known cuz their habitants live in a perfect State. No Tyrants are known there, because tyrants are what Ultramarines detest the most (guillimans "father" was killed by one) Ultramar is a model of how every civilization on galaxy should be, prosper, peaceful, respectful, every citizen in any world within Ultramar are free, (always that they stay loyal to the emperor)

The Ultras swear fealty to the Emperor do they not? so, despite them having a 'Perfect State' with wealthy and prospering citizens they are still supporting a 10.000 year old Imperium whose crimes against humanity rival those of the Traitor Legions, and in some cases even surpass them. The loyalist spacemarines do not worship Him on Earth in the same way as the Ecclesiarchy but, they have done nothing to prevent them from deifying the Emperor of Mankind and thereby establishing total control on the majority of Imperial worlds.

A really interesting topic.

A few thoughts: I thought that the Emperor was not a god, merely a supreme example of Humanity. In fact, he was anti-religion and pro-science. I think we can safely say he would not be impressed by the worship that's built up around him.

Exactly!

The way I see it there are three major 'evils' in 40k, the Highlords of Terra, the followers (not the gods) of Chaos, and the 'loyalist marines' who's stood by and done nothing to prevent the Imperium from collapsing upon itself after the Great Crusades, and they've done nothing to prevent a semi-heretical religious cult from taking power. The marines of the 41st millennia may fight for 'good and just' ideals but, the real goal was replaced with 'survival', many many millennia ago.

There's no black and white in 40K, only different shades of grim (^_^)

My 2 Kraks

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Imperialis_Dominatus stated my point about the Word Bearers more clearly. They think that the Chaos Gods are what's best for humanity.

 

Indeed. To the Word Bearers, Chaos is the strength needed to save Humanity, destroy their enemies, and unite them for a common cause. At least that's how I see it. Rather than seeing the Word Bearers as anonymous religious oppressors and zealots, I see them as having a purpose, a purpose that to them has some merit beyond 'lol killing lol.' Indeed, that's how I see most of the Legions- especially the Word Bearers and the Night Lords. They're two Legions I can identify with.

 

In other words, don't judge a God by their extremists. That argument holds true now, it does in 40k.

 

True.

 

"...he (the Emperor) failed to see that what HUMANITY required above all else was religious guidance..."

 

- Quoted from the Index Astartes Word Bearers in reference to their pathological dedication to Chaos.

 

Nice quote. And indeed, from some perspectives this could be held to be true. Look at the Imperium today. The only way it has survived till now is by heavy, oppressive religious doctrine. The Emperor might not approve, but it's how humanity found a way to live.

 

A few thoughts: I thought that the Emperor was not a god, merely a supreme example of Humanity. In fact, he was anti-religion and pro-science. I think we can safely say he would not be impressed by the worship that's built up around him.

 

But it has saved Humanity.

 

Chaos IS about extremism. I don't think any Chaos god (as capricious, evil and untrustworthy as any of them are) would accept anything less than complete subservience from their worshippers. Sure, one may start on the road without being dominated by said desires, etc, but sooner or later you are a mere "Slave to Chaos". Note the use of the word "Slave". Not partner, not ruler, not buddies. Slaves, pure and simple. Only a fool would think otherwise. These are NOT deities that preach love, forgiveness and "give peace a chance". I can't see their worshippers hugging trees and singing "Kumbaya, my Lord..."

 

These deities want total subservience and domination.

 

So does any deity. Think about the Old Testament God. He's pretty volatile. Same applies to most gods. But that doesn't exclude the lip servicers, faithless, and wannabes we see so often today. I'd suggest that the vast majority of Chaos followers are the same. We just see the more fanatical followers because they're more fun to write about.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But that doesn't exclude the lip servicers, faithless, and wannabes we see so often today. I'd suggest that the vast majority of Chaos followers are the same. We just see the more fanatical followers because they're more fun to write about.

 

Exactly. I can hardly imagine that every Slaanesh worshipper goes out and has orgies while tied in barbed wire, like their extremist worshippers might. Most Slaanesh cults are more peaceful, focussing merely on aesthetics, on music, food, art and so on. They aren't all thinking "I'm going to cut them a new orifice, and then #$^% it!"

 

As I've said before, if the Chaos Gods were only this twisted, and had no redeeming factors, then who would worship them? Not that many people go from non-believer to extremist (and by extremist I mean 40k-style extremist, like stapling parts of your holy book to your naked flesh type extremist). There has to be levels of worship below that, and many would be happy to worship their god at that level, not having the ambition to go higher. Not every Chaos worshipper wants to be a daemon prince, for some, they just see Chaos as better than what the Emperor can do for them.

[Schultzhoffen]

Perhaps any deity does demand subservience but does every deity demand its followers commit evil, spread devastation, destroy worlds, etc...? In a 40K context, only the Chaos god do. I'm not counting the Emperor as he's not a god (possibly no longer with us, anyway). The more fanatical Chaos followers are indeed more fun to write about but they are the (nearly) final destination of all followers of the Chaos gods (remember, the lure to slavery?).

 

The point of Chaos worship is that it may start out innocently enough but it doesn't stay there, sooner or later you just want (are possessed to do?) something diabolical.

 

Sure, loyalist Marines have supported an Evil Regime with their compliance, but for ordinary folks (Mr and Mrs Far Future), living under the Imperium would be preferable to living under the Dominion of Chaos. So, yes, the far future is all grim, dark, gloomy, etc, some parts are worse than others, Chaos is pretty horrible. The only fates I can think of that would be worse than a Chaos dominated Universe would be Necrons or Tyrannids wiping the Universe out (even living like a worm at least means you are alive, although there ARE worse things than death). I think Chaos has been put up as THE GRAND BAD GUY, the archytypal villains. The bad guy we love to hate, so to speak.

 

Sometimes evil isn't relative (although in the case of Chaos Marines it may BE the relatives, if you get my drift...)

[rmoody100]

That said, storyline wise, you're buggered. EVERYONE in 40k is bad to some extent.

 

In the dark future of the 41st millenium there are no good guys, only different shades of bad.

 

Good, bad, not really concepts that fit to begin with - it's all shades of grey and each side think that

they are on the side of right.

 

If any races could be called good, it's the ones that died young: the Slann and the Squats.

 

You can't really say anything bad about either race - worst they did was defend themselves.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Perhaps any deity does demand subservience but does every deity demand its followers commit evil, spread devastation, destroy worlds, etc...? In a 40K context, only the Chaos god do.

 

Maybe in some interpretations, extreme interpretations, the ones we're given in fluff. The truly insidious false faith is that which seems attractive. The ones who twirl their evil mustaches aren't that realistic unless one's less-than-fanatical faith develops, over time, into the crazy Chaos worshiper we often see in fluff.

 

I'm not counting the Emperor as he's not a god (possibly no longer with us, anyway).

 

Heresy. Prepare for the wrath of the god you disbelieve in.

 

The more fanatical Chaos followers are indeed more fun to write about but they are the (nearly) final destination of all followers of the Chaos gods (remember, the lure to slavery?).

 

Perhaps it's the eventual destination, but how many followers actually reach that point? Probably as many as reach the fundamentalist faiths present today (thankfully not many, but still enough to hurt my head).

 

The point of Chaos worship is that it may start out innocently enough but it doesn't stay there, sooner or later you just want (are possessed to do?) something diabolical.

 

True, but see above. How many actually reach the ideal of Chaos worship? How many are possessed of such strength of will and faith? Inquisitors and some higher ups in the Imperium are a rare few amongst uncounted trillions, and it is they who are truly willing and able to commit to Exterminatus in the Golden Throne's name.

 

Sure, loyalist Marines have supported an Evil Regime with their compliance, but for ordinary folks (Mr and Mrs Far Future), living under the Imperium would be preferable to living under the Dominion of Chaos. So, yes, the far future is all grim, dark, gloomy, etc, some parts are worse than others, Chaos is pretty horrible. The only fates I can think of that would be worse than a Chaos dominated Universe would be Necrons or Tyrannids wiping the Universe out (even living like a worm at least means you are alive, although there ARE worse things than death). I think Chaos has been put up as THE GRAND BAD GUY, the archytypal villains. The bad guy we love to hate, so to speak.

 

True. But they're also the bad guy we love to find ways to sympathize, empathize with. It makes them more real for me, at least.

 

Sometimes evil isn't relative (although in the case of Chaos Marines it may BE the relatives, if you get my drift...)

 

I agree. In fact, my own personal beliefs are rather close to absolute on good and evil. Not quite that bad, but you definitely couldn't call me a relativist.

[the jeske]

How many are possessed of such strength of will and faith?

every WB . every "cult" marine . after you sell your soul/get marked there is no turning back .

 

Sometimes evil isn't relative

evil is what others do . good is what we [family/clan/nation] do . well at least for me its easy . its the western guys who always get that "what is evil and what is good thing". We are more down to earth with that .

 

as csm go . I play them for what they are psychopaths without mercy . but without that stupid "grimdark" thing.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Perhaps any deity does demand subservience but does every deity demand its followers commit evil, spread devastation, destroy worlds, etc...? In a 40K context, only the Chaos god do. I'm not counting the Emperor as he's not a god (possibly no longer with us, anyway). The more fanatical Chaos followers are indeed more fun to write about but they are the (nearly) final destination of all followers of the Chaos gods (remember, the lure to slavery?).

 

What, you mean you're not counting the GOD-Emperor? The guy who has such tenets as "kill, kill, kill", "do not ask 'why kill the alien', rather ask 'why not'?", and other such friendly, love-inspiring phrases? The same GOD-Emperor who started the Geat Crusade? The goal of which being the wholesale destruction of every single thing that didn't give fealty to the Emperor? "Oh, a Xenos. Kill it. Oh, a human that doesn't want to be a part of my totalitarian regime. Kill it. Ok, we've managed to bring death and destruction to your planet, most likely killing your family, decimating your culture, burning down its greatest achievements, and replaced it with a domineering regime, but feel good, because we've improved your life!"

 

Face it, the Emperor is now a god, even if he wasn't originally. Now however, Crusades are launched in His holy name, to recapture whole systems in blood and fire. The Xenos is killed simply because it's different. The Witch is killed because it is different. Human cultures that don't accept the Emperor are killed, because they're heretics, and therefore different.

 

Workers get to go into work with their heads with such motivational thoughts as "the loyal slave learns to love the lash", "life is a prison, death a release", "it is better for a man to be afraid than happy", "work is prayer" "choice is the one burden we will not suffer".

 

The Imperium does "commit evil, spread devastation, destroy worlds", to useyour words, and according to the Ecclesiarchy, the Emperor demands it of them. Don't say the Emperor doesn't say it, because His saints give the exact same messages. Kill the Xeno, the Mutant, the Witch. Burn the unbeliever. Trust not the Psyker.

 

And as for the Chaos Gods "demanding" the same, forgive me if I'm wrong, but many Chaos cults exist without trying to kill everyone they see. The Chaos Gods don't simply demand blood, death and destruction, they don't only want their worshippers to "commit evil, spread devastation, destroy worlds". They want worship, true, but worship does not have to be done through a gun. To worship the Chaos Gods, you can do other things than sacrifice babies, or create daemonhosts. You merely have to experience the emotion that fuels them. Slaanesh is fueled by desire, by joy. Tzeentch is fuelled by hope, by the feelings of change. Nurgle is fuelled by stubborness, by tenacity in the face of opposition. Khorne is fuelled by anger, true, but is also fuelled by honour, by pride. None of those feelings necessitates bloodshed. Khorne strays the closest to needing blood, in some Cults I'll admit it does need it, but Khorne-worship can be done in other ways than fighting and killing.

 

RK: I know that I could never find joy in the foul perversities expected by your foul god.

 

AD: Foul? Is joy foul? Why do you assume the Lord of Delight expects only perversity from His followers? Slaanesh is, amongst so many other things, the manisfested persoification of pleasure, and more importantly, the desire to feel pleasure. How we generate that pleasure is not important to Him, the fact that we experience it at all is enough.

 

RK: You are trying to tell me that your god has no interest in debauchery? We both know that isn't true!

 

AD: I have no doubt that Slaanesh takes His delight from all acts that gratify the senses. But, if I may say so, you are far too obsessed with 'debauchery'. For all our apparent intelligence, humans are creatures of nature. Every emotion we experience, and therefore every act that we initiate is a product of our natural state of being, and not simply pressed upon us by some insideous external force.

 

RK: So you are saying that Slaanesh does not promote hedonism in His name?

 

AD: Not at all. I am trying to say that the gods are but reflections of our own emotions and drives, they are a product of our desires, not our own. You cannot condemn any one of them for what they are, or what they do, for they are simply projections of those processes that make us human. They are us, and we are they.

 

 

Sometimes evil isn't relative.

Give me one example. Any example you can care to think of. History is littered with genocides, with horrifying massacres, populations put to the torch, but I can assure you that to each of the people doing the deed, they believed they were in the right. They were making the world a better place. They were often doing Gods holy will. They were taking what was rightfully theirs. I have yet to find an example of an act that is universally evil.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Lord_Caerolion Posted Today, 10:53 AM

Give me one example. Any example you can care to think of. History is littered with genocides, with horrifying massacres, populations put to the torch, but I can assure you that to each of the people doing the deed, they believed they were in the right. They were making the world a better place. They were often doing Gods holy will. They were taking what was rightfully theirs. I have yet to find an example of an act that is universally evil.

 

Indeed. Not only that, but those who commit acts ranging from shades of grey, to what everyone else would see as mass murder, will always try to justify their actions as good. I have yet to see anyone commonly described as 'evil' who believed and admitted they were doing evil.

[Grinshanks]

Try to think Night lords are an Army of Batmans.

 

This has made my day! Nananananana Night Lords!

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Be warned, I've seen discussions of moral relativity get out of hand fast.

 

My personal opinion is that there is a 'true' set of morals. I can understand how others think that since humanity espouses a wide variety of beliefs, no true belief system exists; however, I don't think this way. Multiple beliefs on the definition of the word 'and' may exist, but that doesn't mean there isn't one definition of the word that is true. Similarly, multiple beliefs in what is right don't negate the possibility of the existence of an absolute (or close to it) moral set of values.

 

As I hold my morals close to heart, I tend to believe my values approach this (close to) absolute set of values. The fact that a mass murderer thinks he is doing good does not negate, in my own view, the fact that he is doing wrong. I like to think of it as a shotgun blast against a target; there are many points that the shot will hit, but some will hit closer to the center than others. Similarly, the wide variety of beliefs humans hold will hit all across the field of action that defines our morality; I must believe that mine is closer. That's a tenet of faith.

 

However, I can understand how others might view this as preposterous. I mean, how could I possibly have, especially at my young age, a set of morals that cover all possible treads and actions? I probably don't. But when I do form an opinion on a difficult situation, it's natural to think I'm right.

 

Apply this to 40k as you will. I see some actions in 40k, no matter what their motivation or pure purpose, as evil, no matter how righteous the perpetrators of such actions believe themselves to be.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't doubt that you could have a fully formed set of morals yourself.

My point is merely this. You gave an example, "multiple definitions of the word 'and' may exist, but that doesn't mean there isn't one definition of the word that is true."

However, I have a question. Who decides what that true definition is?

Is it you? Your parents? Your government? Any person? If it's a person, then their definition is influenced by their past experiences, and thus not truely objective. As such, no person can truely give an answer that isn't their personal one.

Wouldn't then this "universal definition" therefore have to be given by something other than a person? What's left to give it? A God? Which one? How do we know?

 

Thats just the thing. We can't. We can only form our own individual morals, and let those guide us. If you've managed to form your own set, then thats great. But those morals aren't mine. They aren't the morals of that guy, or that guy over there. Everyone develops their own set.

 

For some, those morals may be completely opposed. As an example, the prosectors of the Witch Hunts fully believed they were doing Gods work, that they were stopping the plans of Satan. To (most of) us, those acts are now seen as abhorrent. Does that make what they did good or evil? My view, from the perspective of hindsight, evil. Just because someone knows how to cure a cold with herbs doesn't mean they should be burnt. Their view? Good. Satan was stopped from corrupting more of Gods children.

 

I guess the question just boils down to the debate over whether it is ok to do what can be seen as evil for a good purpose. Is that ok, or does the way in which its done make it truely evil? I'm midway on this, similar to the views of Colonel Kurtz and the Night Lords. If something must be done, then I'll do it. However, you do that same thing, but for self-gain, or entertainment, or pleasure, then I can't accept that. I accept that others may differ in their views, and welcome the debates.

 

 

@Grinshanks, think more along the lines of the Dark Knight style Batman. What was the quote... "and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector", and "They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice."

 

 

EDIT: Oh, and yes, I've seen discussions of morals go on here before. The last one we had didn't go too badly, I'll pass on the link. Quite a good read, and if you read that, I won't have to repost my massive arguments here.

[Grinshanks]

@Grinshanks, think more along the lines of the Dark Knight style Batman. What was the quote... "and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector", and "They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice."

 

Lol! Don't worry i got where you were coming from, but you have to admit "Nanananana Night Lords" sounds too good to pass up :D

[Lord_Caerolion]

Heh, yeah...

[Cale]

The easy out is to just play renegades. So the Imperium is a crappy place, and widespread worship of the Ruinous Powers would only make it worse--your marines could just be those misfits who've figured all that out and said, "to hell with it, we're gonna go out and do our own thing."

 

They could even be Robin Hood type heroic figures--criminals because they act against a corrupt government, but ultimately just out to be nice fellows and help the little guy. On the scale of Warhammer 40.000, any renegade marine chapter is less than a drop in the bucket, but you can still envision each battle you play as being for a cause you'd champion yourself, without having to be an Imperial stooge or an utter psychopath.