Don't laugh, How do you play Chaos?

[Rain]

Am I really the only Chaos player that likes the fact that their army is a band of nihilistic mass-murderers that will will put a bolt shell through your brain case just for happening to be in their way? Well face it folks, that's what Chaos is, it is the complete abandonment of traditional morality and ethics in exchange for a submission to selfishness. Sure Chaos Marines believe that they are in the right, but so do most serial killers, and I don't see many people calling them "misunderstood". Point is, yes, Chaos is evil but that's what makes it so much fun to play them as they represent the complete abandonment of all that our actual lives push upon us.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, I wholeheartedly agree that some Chaos worshippers are like that. But not all Chaos Marines worship Chaos, some are merely very anti-Imperial. Some Chaos Marines subscribe to Kurtz-ian morals, having the beliefs mentioned in Apocalypse Now, in particular some Night Lords. Chaos is varied and diverse. To say all Chaos Marines act in a certain way is going against the fundamental principle of Chaos.

[Schultzhoffen]

I agree, I think this is probably a draw but I DO have one question. Please name the Chaos Space Marine band that does not embody the traditional view of evil.

 

You see, to me, saying that Chaos and its followers/minions are not completely evil is a bit blah. Hell, Chaos is ALL about the "me", about self over duty, about desire over doing the right thing.

 

I disagree that you need good to define evil. I think we all know what evil is. There are, however, shadings of evil. The difference is committing an evil action from need or the belief that one is right to merely enjoying a "might makes right" mentality. In that sense I agree that good is very rare in the 40K Universe.

 

However, you have been articulate and a gentleman, sir. While I might not agree with you I certainly admire your arguments.

[Legatus]

There is a difference between being a traitor and worshiping chaos. When a party (could be a chapter, or a planetary government) is "anti-imperial", then they are traitors. Only when they start making human sacrifices to some ancient gods they are "chaos". Both usually goes hand in hand, but not necessarily. A chapter that is unhappy with imperial doctrine and starts doing their own thing are traitors. Only when they pray to the dark gods and start to appeal to them they become Chaos Marines. Again, the difference is merely disagreeing with authority versus evil.

 

Gork and Mork represent all (or perhaps the most basic) of the Ork psyche, and aggression and mischievousnes are mainly what they are about. The chaos gods on the other hand are not even intended to represent all human emotions. They represent specifically the bad ones. Slaanesh was not even created by humans, but by the Eldar. Does that mean humans have no god for joy? No, because that's not what Slaanesh is about. The Eldar, responsible for Slaanesh, had a whole pantheon, for different aspects of their psyche or culture, for millions of years of their existence, before Slaanesh was born 10k years ago out of their decadence and excesses and killed most of their gods. IIRC the stories mention Eldar nobles torturing and killing others just for their own amusement and stuff like that. Khaine was their god of war and aggression, but he was not a chaos god either. Why would they get a god of desire, lust and joy after millions of years of a rich pantheon of gods? And why did it destroy their civilisation (not just the gods, but physically as well) when it was born?

 

There are traitors, and there are cults worshiping dark gods. There are warp gods, and there are chaos gods. Chaos is malevolent, destructive and corrupting. People start worshiping chaos because all they will first know is the promise of power or fulfilment of their dreams. No one "knows" the chaos gods. There is no information people could access to lear about them (only old tomes of ancient rituals perhaps). No one goes around and explain to them that it is not a good idear to deal with chaos. So they will start worshiping chaos, and first it will be mild, and they will see no ill. It is when they start appealing more and more to their gods, that they will be cursed by them in exchange. And in the end they are damned, their souls are claimed by the dark gods. Human souls thankfully are not as "developed" as Eldar souls, and human souls will not "experience" the afterlife as intense as Eldar souls will. Because in the after life, following a life of allegiance to the dark gods, their souls will be tortured for all eternity. The purpose of Eldar soulstones is to protect their souls from Slaanesh, who has a claim on them all after he was created by their doing. It is a fate far worse than death for Eldar to die without their soulstone intact.

Back to the point of worship, yes, there are cults who have not yet suffered the curses that come with the dark gods, but that is only because they are not in an advanced stadium. Chaos corrupts. A downward spiral has been mentioned. And it does not take "10 years" of any such definitive time frame. It might take thousands of years for a civilisation to finally realize the full extent of their doing. They might be wiped out before chaos could fully degenerate their society, as seemed the case with the Nurtheen. Their souls will be claimed by the dark gods none the less.

[Lord_Caerolion]

To answer Legatus, this is what I mean about calling it a draw. I've provided quotes that, to me, show that in the Warp like attracts like, so the Chaos Gods cannot help but embody all human emotion. Otherwise, where does the other emotion go? Also, Slaanesh did so much damage when it was born because thats what happens when a fully powered Warp-God manifests. The creation of the first 3 caused massive collateral damage during the War in Heaven, throwing the Warp into turmoil and also, it seems, loosing the Enslaver Plague. It's not surprising that Slaanesh caused so much damage.

 

To answer Schultzhoffen, the Nurthene are a perfect example of a Chaos-worshipping society that doesn't match the common characteristics of evil. I know, I know, they aren't Chaos Marines, but then again I wouldn't be too quick to not call Loyalist Marines evil, so make them that bit 'darker', and yeah. Even so, I'd say most Sahaal-ist Night Lords would come under a general category of non-evil, even if you couldn't exactly call them good. They commit atrocities, probably utilise Chaos (after all, the Night Haunter himself used it as a tool), but do so to remove the Emperor from power. After all, Sahaal comes to care for his little rag-tag empire after a while, so Chaos Marines can feel empathy. A majority merely have it driven out of them by megalomania and insanity.

 

Still, I'm saying that many Chaos Marines are the evil you describe, because they have given themselves over entirely to a morally dubious entity. Even if the entity itself isn't pure evil, the worshippers can be. I'll give the example of the Shadow Theory again. The Shadow of your mind isn't evil in itself, even if it is dark. However, you give yourself over entirely to this non-evil concept, and you'll become evil. You lose all concept of balance, but the Shadow itself is still 'neutral'.

This though is why I love Chaos, and 40k in its entirety, because these sorts of debates are so entertaining, and the concepts much deeper than they first appear. I thank you for your compliments, Schultzhoffen, and return the same to you, and you, Legatus.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Why don't we learn a bit more about the Word Bearers from their Index Astartes?

 

...

 

 

So, yeah, the Word bearers do think that their way of total Chaos worship is the only way for mankind to survive. The downside would be the whole Chaos worship part, which is briefly touched on in the quotes above.

 

I already knew those things, thanks... I was only stating my conclusion about the Word Bearers' point of view. Which I see you agree with.

 

I tend to think of him as a Psychic vegetable (gasp! Blasphemy!)... Certainly a very good tool for remaining in power and controlling the ignorant (let's hope the Inquisition don't come knocking tonight!).

 

*knock knock*

 

I agree, I think this is probably a draw but I DO have one question. Please name the Chaos Space Marine band that does not embody the traditional view of evil.

 

Maybe not any of GW's, since they seem to have imaginations but refuse to use them, but I'm sure you could find a well-done Chaos-worshiping DIY Chapter that did not embody the traditional view of evil.

[Legatus]

Maybe not any of GW's, since they seem to have imaginations but refuse to use them, but I'm sure you could find a well-done Chaos-worshiping DIY Chapter that did not embody the traditional view of evil.

Yes, maybe they could be female Marines who worship chaos to help with the whole gene-seed compatability issue and because the Imperium wouldn't allow them to be. :mellow:

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Maybe not any of GW's, since they seem to have imaginations but refuse to use them, but I'm sure you could find a well-done Chaos-worshiping DIY Chapter that did not embody the traditional view of evil.

Yes, maybe they could be female Marines who worship chaos to help with the whole gene-seed compatability issue and because the Imperium wouldn't allow them to be. ;)

 

Ah, how relevant to my post! Thank you for your response! :pirate:

 

EDIT @ Below: Alright, that's your view, I won't force mine on you then. We'll disagree.

 

Unless you care to disagree on that? In which case this will get far too interesting... :devil:

[Legatus]

"Chaos Marines that are not monsters is fluff breaking" was the point I so subtly was trying to get across. :D

[Hellios]

"Chaos Marines that are not monsters is fluff breaking" was the point I so subtly was trying to get across. :yes:

 

There are those who fell to chaos and then hated themselves for it I'm not sure they are monsters :S and lets not forget the minor chaos gods who knows what they and their worshippers may be like :()

[RazakelXIII]

I like my Word Bearers flensing the flesh from the bones of the innocent, butchering populations in the names of their profane deities and drinking deep the lifeblood of worlds. They're the worst it gets, utter ravening monsters in every sense of the word. Evil? Nah. Insane? Oh, yes, so very insane. I've long since given up trying to morally polarize 40k. First off, Chaos is an amorphous non-substance borne of the very sentience of man itself - human emotion feed the Warp, not the other way around. Calling Chaos evil is by extension calling every living thing in the universe evil, and considering that Chaos can represent positive emotions as well as negative ones, saying it's "evil" isn't something I'm quite willing to do. As for the Traitors, yeah, they were driven insane by doubt and turned against the Emperor in rage, but even then it's morally gray. Some of them didn't even turn willingly - look at Magnus the Red, Fulgrim, or Mortarion. Perturabo? He was ignored and his Legion used as a meatgrinder. Angron was a slave, and right on the eve of his revolution the Emperor tore him away from his people. Horus's mind was broken under the burden of the most extreme responsibility imaginable and the adoration of literally trillions. All Lorgar knew was faith and when the Emperor told him to abandon it, what else could he have done but turn to the religion he'd once followed on Colchis? Don't even get me started on Kurze (better yet, go read Lord of the Night).

 

As for the Traitor marines themselves, they turned because they felt their Primarch was in the right, not out of loyalty to Chaos. They were betrayed and used by a totalitarian regime and so they broke their oaths to that regime when they realized it was wrong. I've heard the argument that breaking their oaths was the most evil thing they could have done, but, and pardon this invocation of Godwyn's Law, I consider the psychology similar to, say, a Nazi soldier in WWII suddenly realizing that Hitler's a genocidal maniac with serious Freudian issues and a Napoleon complex who probably shouldn't be running his own country, much less the world, and (despite the economic benefits! <- supposed to be funny, probably isn't) decided to break his oaths. I hardly consider that wrong. Now, you could argue that Chaos wasn't exactly the best alternative, but the traitors probably didn't realize what they were going into, and by the time they did (if they did at all), it was either too late, or they were already waaaay off the deep end/possessed/insane and reveling in it (not sure about the Alpha Legion. I imagine some of them were eventually driven mad by overexposure to Chaos, but that just might be the Alpha Legion being the Alpha Legion). But again, if one considers the bigger picture, Chaos is not necessarily evil.

 

Chaos itself isn't even sentient (for the most part, I find the Daemons codex utterly contemptible for personifying Chaos so much). The Warp is just one great big blob of congealed emotion-essence. The "Gods" (they're not gods, just extra-dimensional phenomena with god-like powers) may be sentient, to an extent, but that sentience is limited, as they are basically one emotion personified. They may be self-aware, but, for example, Khorne cannot think or feel anything other than "KILL MORE STUFF TO MAKE ME FEEL GOOD ABOUT MYSELF," Slaanesh cannot feel anything other than "MOOOOOOORE!!!!" Nurgle's thought process is simply "You shouldn't have to suffer" and Tzeentch's mind is basically the greatest stream of if-then-else statements in existence and he chooses things to perpetuate that stream, not because of self-benefit. If the Gods could consciously choose between two courses of action based on a moral precept of what is good and evil, then I might begin to agree that they are evil (as loosely defined a term as evil is - evil's not really something I believe in in the first place, but I won't go into that, as that goes into free will vs. determinism and I don't really care to get banned :P). Once again, there ARE non-destructive Chaos Gods, but they are mostly ignored as they're either not as powerful as the Big Four or just not as interesting. :)

 

Now, are Chaos Marines monsters? Absolutely! But it's not because they're evil, it's because they are insane and destructive and, for some of the more extreme Legions like the World Eaters or Emperor's Children, have no real sense of morality whatsoever, having embraced their God a bit too closely. The Word Bearers and several other Legions/renegade Chapters genuinely believe they are fighting for the salvation of mankind. Their methods are questionable (VERY questionable), but nobody really thinks themselves to be evil, now do they? It's that "KILL EVERYTHING PAINFULLY BECAUSE WE WANT TO SAVE IT!!!" irony that I find so attractive about the Word Bearers, especially because they don't notice it themselves. It's what makes them so much fun, and frankly, the Loyalists are exactly the same, which makes it even sweeter.

[Bish]

Firstly it’s a game where we can do what we cannon in the real world well mostly

 

Secondly this is from in character

 

The conflict between good and evil is one of the most common conventional themes in our universe.

 

After all what’s the point in a war that has only one side.

 

Theses of us who command Chaos like the stories the Fluff the struggle against the regime

We play by enjoying the senses we create in others to see the face of your opponent as he knows he is to lose.

 

Is this wrong or evil no. What is evil is the other side’s perception of the acts undertaken by the opposing side. After all is it evil to wipe out a planet infested with evil. It is the word used to exonerate acts which would be shunned in a perfect world. It is the word used by the winners to describe the loser’s actions which justifies the means to the end.

 

History is written by the winners and the biases of the descriptions available to read are mainly from the Imperial side.

 

Are acts stand alone evil yes but who can justify there actions by the actions of others up to that point. Why did it happen then you can see that the original evil was from the false god of an emperor. Look to them for the reasons we are as we are.

 

 

They made us

 

We are now set until…......

 

Well is there an end.

 

2 kidneys worth

[Yogi]

I like most of the Chaos legions because they admit they're bad. They don't try and justify it. They just don't care. As to what the choas gods do well that I can understand why some of it might make you disgusted. I personally can't stand nurgle and his followers they're just disgusting, they're rules however are awesome; feel no pain, T5 yes please, but I could never bring myself to paint and play such a disgusting army.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

How do you reconcile yourself to playing and cheering your team on when they are pretty nasty?

...

It's just like if you're playing marines, you could cheer them on to save humanity and all

 

I reconcile myself exactly they way I do with loyalist marines, exactly the way I would if I played Orks, 'Nids, Eldar...

 

All 40k races are interested only in surviving by destroying those not like themselves. They may believe that they kill to make the universe better but there are no "good guys".

 

Thats not 100% true. While i may agree with "other founding chaters" i have to disagree on the Ultramarines part. Ultramar is a "kindgdom" known cuz their habitants live in a perfect State. No Tyrants are known there, because tyrants are what Ultramarines detest the most (guillimans "father" was killed by one) Ultramar is a model of how every civilization on galaxy should be, prosper, peaceful, respectful, every citizen in any world within Ultramar are free, (always that they stay loyal to the emperor)

 

Show me a society in which not one person voices discontent and I will show you the most oppressively tyrannical regime ever created. Surely a strength of our real world society in a country like the UK is that we recognise it is flawed. Just about everybody has something they dislike about the system but they're allowed to have a grumble and make fun of the people in charge and protest, maybe even have a riot occasionally (I do NOT condone rioting but the fact that the state metes out proportionate punishments rather than just shooting everyone is a good thing). If the people of Ultramar are as united and peaceful and diligent as you suggest then they must be living in fear of an extremely efficient state oppression system.

 

The Imperium is oppression, chaos is anarchy - not much of a choice! I'd rather live on Nurth pre-heresy than plenty of the Imperial worlds post-heresy.

[IWIII]

chaos is fun and easy to play :) it's like SM only with some mutations here and there and just five gallons of maniac per model :)

 

night lords are THE terror legion so expect a lot of lightning and similar stuff. just remember when playing night lords, try to get that scream out of your opponent.

 

BTW thousand sons are cool too ;)

Yup, except NL are like evil sm without mutations here and there, and IW are evil SM with mech parts instead of mutations here and there :D

[IWIII]

also remember NL are not worshippers of chaos at all, so their being "evil" is not really caused by taint, also a number of loyalist chapters are plain evil and sadistic, like the Flesh Tearers. Those guys make khorne berzerkers look like helpful boy scouts.

[Argon]

Generally speaking, everyone in 40k is evil. The Space Marines and SoB will kill entire cities if they belive that city deserves it. The Inquision will destroy entire planets due to rounding errors in their taxes (Well, almost :P). Chaos Marines are evil in their own ways. Khornate chapters are evil in a mass murder kind of way. Slanneshi chapters are evil in a let nothing stand between you and the pleasure you seek kind of way. I think the closest thing to "good guys" 40k has is the Tau, and coincidentally they're the only major race that doesn't know about Chaos. They also have a habit of using concentration camps, forced sterilization programs, and orbital bombardment on any world who acts up.

 

You can't really call Chaos the evil race of 40k. They might be more blatant in their evilness, but they're not the only evil guys in 40k.

 

....on review of the entire topic, it would appear I've been ninja'd ;) .

[Fury_of_Fenris]

i dont thikn anyones mentioned this but its a game and not real so i find actually quite easy to play.

[Lord_Omnibus]

"As to the daemon who had taken over Fulgrim, it was elevated by Slaanesh to the rank of Daemon Prince - gifted with a serpentine form and multiple arms holding rapiers - and now rules over a planet of unending, unlimited pleasure" damn would i like to go there :)

[bc99]

Am I really the only Chaos player that likes the fact that their army is a band of nihilistic mass-murderers that will will put a bolt shell through your brain case just for happening to be in their way? Well face it folks, that's what Chaos is, it is the complete abandonment of traditional morality and ethics in exchange for a submission to selfishness. Sure Chaos Marines believe that they are in the right, but so do most serial killers, and I don't see many people calling them "misunderstood". Point is, yes, Chaos is evil but that's what makes it so much fun to play them as they represent the complete abandonment of all that our actual lives push upon us.

 

I agree. Why argue the morals of chaos? They are the bad guys! It's fun to play them. Sure the Imperium is full of benighted, superstitious masses, barely fit for salvation, but they're still the "good guys" because they battle for humanity.

 

It's great being the bad guys!

[Night Stalker]

Both Imperium and Chaos are bad guys. It's a mattern of style, and in that regard Chaos is vastly superior. I mean - only losers want to worship dead god, when they have choice of *real* god (who could give him cool toys, if he is nice!) !

 

For those who think about Imperials as good guys - imperial citzens are just slaves - expendable cattle. Nothing more. High Lords of Terra does not care about them. Word *humanity* is used as imperial propaganda.

 

 

[Yeah, thats why i like this setting - no good guys (Orks are most likely to be good guys), it's mature and have silly slaughter inside]

[Mutt-Man!]

How do I do it? ... Hmm well lets see, I grew up on horror, heck I watched Alien and Aliens before I was 7-9yo(dont remember when exactly, just where I lived and the age-range). I grew up on Jason, elmstreet horrors and of course I always played dark stuff because being the bad guy was just too much fun. Halloween is my fav holiday, and I ain't emo either...

 

Here's my fluff (before changes made them a bit different) I came back to make models to represent them, having naked women and babies hooked onto their armor screaming to either be killed or saved... Various other things as well depending on the "marks" they have, I rather not discuss it here. They were banned from being played during any time kids were out of school at our local gaming pond. If that gives you a good enough idea...

 

http://bootae.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7803

 

Also note that this is an un-edited 2006 fluff I made... Refer to Lucius' entry as well, and you'll notice something. =p

[kickingbird]

Personnaly I think its fun to play the bad guy :lol: Though reading chaos fluff does sometimes make me release how bad they can be (pritty graphic). I play IW so appreciate why they did what they did because they felt used and betrayed fighting for the imperium.

 

Besides its just sci fi, it dosent represent your personnal beliefs just what you find kool. Otherwise I would be playing wood or high elves lol like i think most would be

[HellHoundLord]

If you still have qualms about playing Chaos, consider this: What is one of the most important elements in any good saga/story? The answer is an incredible opponent or "villain" for the "heroes" to overcome. So if you follow the Chaos = Bad Imperium = Good setup that GW has set, you would be playing the indomitable bad-guy who forces the hero to overcome the worst the universe can throw at them. If you follow the Chaos line of the Imperium = Bad, then you are playing the hero fighting overwhelming odds to achieve your goals.

 

Personally I prefer playing the bad guys. I mean what good is a story without a really nasty bad guy to deal with?

[Nehekhare]

What is "evil" (in the grim darkness of the far future)? ;)