Which Land Raider?

[templargdt]

Hi guys, I've decided to start playing Grey Knights, because the models look awesome and I want a force that can both shoot and assault (so far I've played Tau in 40K, which can do one and Epic Fail the other.)

 

I want to build the most competitive GK force possible, and so I'm wondering: Land Raider or LR Crusader? Which is better and why?

 

Thanks!

[Melissia]

I'd say the regular Land Raider, because it has anti-tank ability that the Grey Knights definitely need.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

If you have your heart set on taking a Land Raider, take the standard version. Grey Knights do not have a gun above Str 6 on anything less than a Dreadnought, so if you can have lascannons, take them. However, if you don't have your heart set on a Land Raider, maybe try a pair of Dreads with twin-linked lascannons.

[- 7eAL -]

Crusader/Redeemer kit comes with the extra armour and bits, though.

I don't recall; can you buy the lascannon sponson sprues anywhere, like at Battlewagon Bits? And will a Terminus Ultra conversion set suffice instead, or does that provide insufficient lascannons?

[number6]

Like others have said, the regular Land Raider is, overall, a better fit for the GKs. It's a more flexible unit, having decent ability to bust armour, kill infantry, and transport assault troops, which fits the nature of GKs perfectly.

 

The Crusader is an excellent vehicle, but because of its weaponry is pretty much devoted to the assault role only, it's actually a bit too restrictive for my taste. Yes, it can bust armour (not so much if you're playing RAW assault cannons, however :)), but not as efficiently as the normal raider. It's a bit stronger at killing infantry, but at the expense of being closer in to the enemy, and thus at a greater risk of suffering under melta weapons (which are quite plentiful in all the MEQ armies I face). The frag launchers are awesome if you want to start an assault, but when you don't wish to do so, you'll wish you had longer-range weaponry available.

 

I would always aim to take one regular raider in a GK army where you want these beasts at all. Maybe take a Crusader as a 2nd, though I would still prefer the normal raider even so. Redundancy is A Good Thing, and besides, four BS 4 TLLCs are just what the doctor ordered for an army suffering from a lack of long-range heavy firepower. Only as a 3rd choice would I opt for the crusader variant.

[ripath]

the terminus can be a lot of fun

[Ambro]

Like everyone else says the first choice should always be a regular land raider, the tricky bit though is which one to take for your second, either another regular one or the crusader as both are excellent vehicles. If you already have two TLLC + ML Dreads though then you could get away with just taking the crusader as the third heavy choice.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think the regular Landraider is too expensive if you are simply after long-range anti-tank. Hellfire Dreadnoughts do the same job at nearly half the price.

 

The fundamental problem with the regular Landraider is that it's too conflicted; you have these awesome cannons (plus Machine Spirit) with excellent range, thus encouraging you to hang back and make maximum use of said extra range. On the other hand, it's the best transport in the army, and the only one that can carry your precious PAGK's or GKT's (GW having thoughtfully nerfed our transports back to the old 'dedicated' rules :( ). It's also the only vehicle you can assault out of, unlike others where you can only hop out and shoot.

 

With the Crusader, there's no conflict. While again, GW likes beating us with the 'you're 3rd edition so you keep your outdated rules' stick, we do get some pretty good synergies. With the exception of the twin-AC (which is pretty much a psycannon except it allows invul), all it's other weapons achieve maximum efficiency at 12" from the enemy. You also lose nothing by popping smoke and rushing 12" to begin with, as with only 24" range it's guns won't be firing anyway. With AV14, only glances and Machine Spirit, it's next to impossible to stop, and next turn you'll move another 12" and deliver your eager PAGK's/GKT's into the fray, with frag grenade bonus as well. The Hurricanes help soften up the enemy prior to a charge, as does the twin-AC. You can also choose to fire the multi-melta instead, for a pretty certain kill against any armour.

 

In my 2,000 point list I run a pair of Hellfire Dreadnoughts and 2 suicide melta IST squads for anti-tank. The Rhino's, much like the Crusader they accompany, are virtually unstoppable with their initial rush of 12" with smokes. After the initial rush they simply divert and hunt armour, while the Crusader barges forwards and disgorges the GKT's. In that context another Landraider is nice, but I prefer the Crusader as a spearhead.

[Melissia]

That's actually a pretty good counter-argument there. Since GKs can be pretty vicious in an assault, taht's definitely an option you might want to consider.

[Ambro]

As I said above the land raider crusader is only really viable if you already have 2 hellfire dreadnoughts. The anti tank on the crusader although nice isnt really going to be enough on its own. So either you go for two dreads and the crusader or one regular land raider and then you can choose to have either dreads or a crusader or another regular landraider.

 

Another thing, hellfire dreadnoughts are not at all comparable to a land raider, they are only AV 12 and can only fire at one target per turn, having a land raider is more like having two dreadnoughts. Also its best to try not to think of the regular land raider as a transport at all as it does have a confused purpose if you are trying to use it as both a long range anti tank weapon and a transport. For regular marine armies this may work but GK's need all the anti tank they can get so the transport ability is really just a nice little feature that we would get to use if were lucky.

[templargdt]

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies!

 

So, with the current play environment, which have you guys found to be more effective, conventional LR and a hang back and shoot strategy or Crusader/assault strategy?

[Melissia]

I would say most people would probably find the conventional LR best, given their lack of anti-tank. It can shoot at two separate targets with its lascannons, which can really help in many situations.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

As I said above the land raider crusader is only really viable if you already have 2 hellfire dreadnoughts. The anti tank on the crusader although nice isnt really going to be enough on its own. So either you go for two dreads and the crusader or one regular land raider and then you can choose to have either dreads or a crusader or another regular landraider.

 

The Crusader is an excellent moving pillbox from which to assault, in it's own right. Arguably, you could just as easily not take Hellfire Dreadnoughts, save some points and get another pair of suicide melta IST squads (although that may be overkill, considering that while enemy armour is though 12 mobile meltaguns is a bit much).

 

I don't take the Crusader for the anti-tank (although the multi-melta can be nice if you don't need to fire the twin-AC), I take it because there are no other good transports for GKT's/PAGK in the army.

 

Another thing, hellfire dreadnoughts are not at all comparable to a land raider, they are only AV 12 and can only fire at one target per turn, having a land raider is more like having two dreadnoughts. Also its best to try not to think of the regular land raider as a transport at all as it does have a confused purpose if you are trying to use it as both a long range anti tank weapon and a transport. For regular marine armies this may work but GK's need all the anti tank they can get so the transport ability is really just a nice little feature that we would get to use if were lucky.

 

You've got things around the wrong way mate. Here is how I see it;

 

Landraider, extra armour, smokes

(258 points)

 

Pro's; AV14, when smokes are popped (which BTW prevents you shooting entirely) is unkillable, can split fire while moving 6" or less, can still fire a sponson while moving 7"-12", can transport units, due to Machine Spirit unless popping smoke can always fire at least one gun

 

Con's; Expensive (it's a squad of PAGK/GKT's practically), one big target (even AV14 breaks) torn between moving up with a cargo or hanging back and sniping with the God-hammers (so it's a bit confused), can't usually claim hull-down due to size (especially if you plan on moving forwards with passengers), if used as a transport is seriously at risk of getting melta'd/chainfisted, but if used as anti-armour sniper is wasting transport potential, hence the dilemma...

 

or

 

(2) GK Dreadnought, twin-lascannon, missile launcher

(280 points total)

 

Pro's; Two seperate targets (thus diluting enemy anti-tank), being walkers they can safely traverse terrain like infantry, can hide in terrain like infantry (thus being more able to claim 4+ cover from hull down/Rhinos ahead of them), same firepower as LR+2 extra krak missiles a turn, can tie up some infantry types in pointless combat if neccessary (DCCW+heavy flamer is same price), can hang back at 52" then walk into range and snipe

 

Con's; Only AV12, can be tied up in pointless combat, chews up two Heavy slots, weak rear armour

 

 

There's about a 20 point difference between the two options above. I personally just think that if you are going to invest that many points in a transport (which is what ultimately the Landraider does, it's a waste to camp it back), the Crusader is the better option. It runs into the same problems as the normal Landraider, but its firepower is completely suited to the brutal close-range firefights that you need a tough transport for.

[honersstodnt]

the crusader IS awesome...

 

but land raiders are good too. you can still move them 6" and fire both weapons at seperate targets. so really, there is no reason to NOT move your land raiders.

 

I've had great success running 2x regular land raiders and 1x crusader in my 2000pt or higher lists, and really can't see any reason not to. in some situations, the crusader is needed. in most others, the regular land raider is better. however, having both puts you ready for anything.

 

edit- the best use I have for my land raiders is holding them back, whittling down the enemy with lascannon fire, and when they eventually approach me, you strike them hard with an assault. if they are the shooty type army, you load up all your marines in the raiders, and deep strike your terminators, and hit em hard.

 

like in the water warrior guide stickied up top... if the enemy gives you fire, give him earth... if he gives you earth, give him fire. the only real problem I have is against air armies, which are thankfully rare. with 3x land raider builds, you have the versatility to switch from fire to earth, or back again, and it gives you a serious tactical advantage over ANYONE you play.

[benmothershaw]

Another thing, hellfire dreadnoughts are not at all comparable to a land raider, they are only AV 12 and can only fire at one target per turn, having a land raider is more like having two dreadnoughts. Also its best to try not to think of the regular land raider as a transport at all as it does have a confused purpose if you are trying to use it as both a long range anti tank weapon and a transport. For regular marine armies this may work but GK's need all the anti tank they can get so the transport ability is really just a nice little feature that we would get to use if were lucky.

You've got things around the wrong way mate. Here is how I see it;

 

Landraider, extra armour, smokes

(258 points)

 

Pro's; AV14, when smokes are popped (which BTW prevents you shooting entirely) is unkillable, can split fire while moving 6" or less, can still fire a sponson while moving 7"-12", can transport units, due to Machine Spirit unless popping smoke can always fire at least one gun

 

Con's; Expensive (it's a squad of PAGK/GKT's practically), one big target (even AV14 breaks) torn between moving up with a cargo or hanging back and sniping with the God-hammers (so it's a bit confused), can't usually claim hull-down due to size (especially if you plan on moving forwards with passengers), if used as a transport is seriously at risk of getting melta'd/chainfisted, but if used as anti-armour sniper is wasting transport potential, hence the dilemma...

 

or

(2) GK Dreadnought, twin-lascannon, missile launcher

(280 points total)

Pro's; Two seperate targets (thus diluting enemy anti-tank), being walkers they can safely traverse terrain like infantry, can hide in terrain like infantry (thus being more able to claim 4+ cover from hull down/Rhinos ahead of them), same firepower as LR+2 extra krak missiles a turn, can tie up some infantry types in pointless combat if neccessary (DCCW+heavy flamer is same price), can hang back at 52" then walk into range and snipe

Con's; Only AV12, can be tied up in pointless combat, chews up two Heavy slots, weak rear armour

 

I disagree with you Reclusiarch Darius, the point you quoted was actually pointing out that the LR provides better service, it's pro's outweigh that of a double A.T. dreadnought.

Also the con's you mentioned, aren't really valid if you know how your going to use a Land Raider (stuck between two roles?). And it can even be a pro, allowing it to inter-change between roles if really needed.

Also it's less expensive than two dreadnoughts.

A few more pro's further below..

 

@ Mellissa - Do you have Grey Knights army?

 

Moving on to answer the question...

 

In the current 5th edition play style, a Land Raider with GK's inside has been strongest. (two games)

Although personally I would struggle getting into a position without a LRC to contest objectives.

A pure GK force? I'm not sure to be honest. A LRC+GKT (properly built) is quite expensive, which is going to take some points out of the objective line.

 

It depends what role you want your Land Raider to play.

 

A Land Raider is great in 5th edition. = Infantry support Vehicle

- Hold objectives with troop choices inside.

- Provides Protection to GK's (troop choice)

- It adds manuverability, though It won't get you to the other side of the objective.

- Survivability is quite high, which allows it to fullfill it's anti-tank role to the full.

- Machine spirit, quite devastating rule which can take your opponents by suprise.

 

My favourite, The Land Raider Crusader = Assault Vehicle

- Contest objectives, the size of the vehicle is a great barrier between your enemy and a objective.

- Delivers units to contest

- Highly Manuverable, unless MEQ melta or DS melta (risky) then it's easy to avoid nasties like Meltaguns.

- Firepower, this baby can move 12" and fire all but one weapon!

- Machine spirit, very deadly, potentially putting a big hole in a nasty tank and one in a line of infantry too!

 

Good luck!

[Melissia]

No, but I do know how to read, and I have been in this forum and the army list forum for the AS and GK armies (Armies of the Imperium) for several months now, enough to know the general feel of the forum when it comes to dealing with this rather glaring hole in the GK army (lack of high strength anti-tank). That is to say, I've seen that if they are going to take a land raider, people usually take the basic one, not the crusader.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

edit- the best use I have for my land raiders is holding them back, whittling down the enemy with lascannon fire, and when they eventually approach me, you strike them hard with an assault. if they are the shooty type army, you load up all your marines in the raiders, and deep strike your terminators, and hit em hard.

 

By holding them back, your wasting their transport potential; by moving them forwards in a transport role, you're wasting the range of those God-hammers. That's my fundemental problem with normal Landraiders.

Also the con's you mentioned, aren't really valid if you know how your going to use a Land Raider (stuck between two roles?). And it can even be a pro, allowing it to inter-change between roles if really needed.

 

I think we're seeing two sides of the same coin. On your side, you see flexibility; on my side, I see a confused unit.

 

From my perspective (and I fully admit, I could be totally wrong), I don't see the value of spending all those points on a transport, and then not using it as a transport. It's like using Assault Marines as a firebase; sure they have bolt pistols and BS4, but it's not what you should be doing with them. The problem the Landraider runs into is that while bolt pistols on Assault Marines are not that critical (wasting their close-combat ability is though), it's God-hammers are the primary reason you're buying it. As I think everyone has stated, you bring the regular LR to get long-range anti-tank. What you're missing is that it's a transport and should be used as such; however, it's stuck between these two roles.

 

Maybe I'm incapable of grand strategy and flexibility, but I usually buy a unit to do one or two jobs and do them well, not get a unit to do two quite different things half-heartedly.

@ Mellissa - Do you have Grey Knights army?

 

Mate, I don't mean to be rude, but don't do that please. I go the same treatment from SoB players when I put up a tactical overview of 'SoB vs Daemon's', mainly because I didn't conform to their group-think of 'shoot enough Divine Guidance/Exorcist and it falls over' and because I (in hindsight perhaps unwisely) made it patently clear I didn't collect SoB. Likewise, don't dismiss another's opinions just because they don't play the army. Fresh eyes bring new perspectives, yeah?

A Land Raider is great in 5th edition. = Infantry support Vehicle

- Hold objectives with troop choices inside.

- Provides Protection to GK's (troop choice)

- It adds manuverability, though It won't get you to the other side of the objective.

- Survivability is quite high,

 

None of this has the slightest to do with whether it's a normal or a Crusader. Both have these same attributes. You could equally say all the same about the Crusader and it would be true.

 

The real difference between the two is their guns (you can buy extra armour for the normal LR, and smokes for the both types, for next to nothing). The Crusader has synergy because it's firepower is the same as it's passengers (ie short-medium range), and it's frag launchers mean you give your PAGK and GKT's a big leg up when charging units who think they are safely in cover. The normal LR packs long-range anti-tank, making it more suited (and more likely to survive) if it hangs back.

 

 

Overall guys, I don't think we'll ever agree on this, because it really depends on your playstyle and opinion. If you can get the regular LR to work, good for you. For me, I'm sticking with Hellfire Dreadnoughts and a Crusader (or 3 Crusaders and no Dreadnoughts, depending whether I'm facing hordes or not).

[Melissia]

From my perspective (and I fully admit, I could be totally wrong), I don't see the value of spending all those points on a transport, and then not using it as a transport.

That's the same decision that Sisters generals must face when picking Immolators as heavy support as well, but it's still done occasionally (less often though, because Exorcists are so much better).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, Immolators are over-priced for what they do (Landraiders are pretty much what they should cost, on the other hand), and yeah I hardly ever see anyone take them over Excorcists. You get heavy flamers aplenty in the SoB army, long-range anti-tank is a bit more problematic. It's pretty much IG lascannons or the Excorcist, everything else is meltagun/multi-melta.

[march10k]

Take the regular one. A crusader plus a pair of hellfire dreads is way too many points not spent on infantry in a sub-2k game.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Take the regular one. A crusader plus a pair of hellfire dreads is way too many points not spent on infantry in a sub-2k game.

 

I agree with you, but we're not debating that. We're debating directly 'Crusader vs God-hammer', not 'Crusader+other units vs lone Landraider'.

 

I never take Landraiders of either type below 2,000 points, I can't spare any room for them because I need those points for PAGK's.

[honersstodnt]

How odd darius, I never take less than 3 in any game I play no matter how many points it is.

 

remember, if you can kill all his units able to destroy your land raiders, you win the game.

 

power armor grey knights in a land raider make the land raider count as scoring... so kill all his anti-tank, and you have unkillable objective holders.

[Marid]

How odd darius, I never take less than 3 in any game I play no matter how many points it is.

 

remember, if you can kill all his units able to destroy your land raiders, you win the game.

 

power armor grey knights in a land raider make the land raider count as scoring... so kill all his anti-tank, and you have unkillable objective holders.

 

Well, I assume you mean at least 1,500 points. Silent Requiem squeezes two LRs in his 1,000-point list, but just barely.

 

There is a difference between making a list for pick-up games and making a take-no-prisoners list. You won't make a lot of friends with the following:

 

BC

6 IST

6 IST

6 IST

LR

LR

LR

991 points

 

It's totally legal, but if someone pulled that army out at my local shop without fair warning, I'd pack my army up before the first die was thrown. I personally would not feel comfortable playing two LRs at less than 1,500 points.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

How odd darius, I never take less than 3 in any game I play no matter how many points it is.

 

Yeah, but thats half your army at 1,500. It's also horribly cheesy and once your Landraiders die you've lost. Going off the top of my head, this is what kills them reliably;

 

Railguns/fusion blasters (Tau)

Chainfists, meltaguns, multi-meltas, lascannons (SM/CSM/IG/Inq)

MC with S6+ (Daemons/SM Libby/Tyranids/

S10 attacks (Warboss PK, Wraithlord, SM/CSM/Ork Dreadnoughts)

 

Landraiders are tough, no doubt, but with only 3 targets to shoot at it's pretty easy for the enemy to concentrate their anti-tank efforts, while holding their anti-infantry in reserve (not literally). Once they're blown up, the limited numbers of PAGK you brought are dead meat, as the enemy as had plenty of time to reposition their anti-infantry units/assault units. Then they simply shoot+assault your small PAGK squads.

[Silent Requiem]

How odd darius, I never take less than 3 in any game I play no matter how many points it is.

 

remember, if you can kill all his units able to destroy your land raiders, you win the game.

 

power armor grey knights in a land raider make the land raider count as scoring... so kill all his anti-tank, and you have unkillable objective holders.

 

Well, I assume you mean at least 1,500 points. Silent Requiem squeezes two LRs in his 1,000-point list, but just barely.

 

There is a difference between making a list for pick-up games and making a take-no-prisoners list. You won't make a lot of friends with the following:

 

BC

6 IST

6 IST

6 IST

LR

LR

LR

991 points

 

It's totally legal, but if someone pulled that army out at my local shop without fair warning, I'd pack my army up before the first die was thrown. I personally would not feel comfortable playing two LRs at less than 1,500 points.

 

It's funny how perspectives change. When I first started playing my GHLR lists, I was mocked, as Rand Raiders were almost "untouchables" in the minds of many players, and taking them was a sign of being a "noob". Now, a list that stacks Raiders of any type is viewed (by many players) as cheesy and overpowered.

 

This kind of prejudice (and that's what it is) hurts everyone. It hurts the other posters in this thread, because your scorn/distain/whatever shuts down creative thought and experimentation. It hurts other gamers, because people who adopt your view may say unpleasant things to them or refuse them games. And it hurts you because it stifles your growth as a player, and programs you to feel that surrender without effort is acceptable. To paraphrase Mr Hurbert, "prejudice is the mind killer".

 

Now, I don't mean to say that I never have a sinking feeling as I stare across the table at the well oiled killing machine across from me and think "Dear gods, what have I gotten myself into?" That's normal, and healthy. But it's funny how often, once you get into the game, the limitations of the other list become apparent. And defiance against the odds is what has marked heros through the ages. Don't you want heroic games? I can't say I've ever enjoyed a walkover. The struggle IS the glory.

 

Just food for thought.

 

-Silent Requiem