SM Upgrade Characters and DH/WH Allies

[drakkhenkc]

In the DH/WH codex, it states you can take certain SM units as allies if you don't include GK or SoB units in the FOC - for example, take a scout squad or a predator.

With the new 5th codex, can I take a scout squad and upgrade the sgt to Telion? How about take a predator and upgrade it to contain Chronos?

I believe it's legal, but I'd like to see what other opinions there are out there.

[Souchan]

Afraid not, both of them are their own seperate entries and neither of them are listed as applicable. They are indeed added to choices both have access to, however neither are listed in the options for the allowed units.

[drakkhenkc]

Interesting, I assumed that since they are 'upgrades' for units, just like taking a meltagun or hunter-killer missile, they would be allowed.

[retlaw83]

Afraid not, both of them are their own seperate entries and neither of them are listed as applicable. They are indeed added to choices both have access to, however neither are listed in the options for the allowed units.

 

While they both have their own entries, it's an interesting thing. Telion is quite clearly an upgrade for a scout squad, with the scout unit entry saying he can be taken instead of a sergeant. So, you could use him in an Inquisitorial army as an ally. However, for Chronus, the rules for adding him to a vehicle are in his entry, and not in the vehicle's entry, so you can't take him.

[Praeger]

For both it comes down to this simple rule:

 

Are they in the original units entry?

 

If the answer is yes, then they are considered an upgrade and can be used.

 

But if they have a seperate profile and rules elswhere, then they are NOT considered an upgrade for the unit.

 

EG - the rules for a sniper rifle are in the original entry for scout squads, so you may use a scout squad and upgrade them with sniper rifles and use them in a WH army.

 

But where are the rules for Telion? Are they IN the scout unit entry? If not then no, he cant be used.

[retlaw83]

But where are the rules for Telion? Are they IN the scout unit entry? If not then no, he cant be used.

 

How do you figure? It says you can take Telion to replace a sergeant, then tells you what page to check.

 

It's like arguing that an allied terminator squad can't take an assault cannon because the rules aren't inside their entry.

[Souchan]

But where are the rules for Telion? Are they IN the scout unit entry? If not then no, he cant be used.

 

How do you figure? It says you can take Telion to replace a sergeant, then tells you what page to check.

 

It's like arguing that an allied terminator squad can't take an assault cannon because the rules aren't inside their entry.

 

No, Telion's entry says he may replace the sarge, just like Cronus has his own entry.(and in fact, the same entry as Honour Guard, Command Squads, Servitors, everything that has a prerequisite before being purchased)

 

The Terminator's do have the assault cannon in their entry. It's one of their options, much like the scouts have a pile of options themselves. Telion isn't one of them. If the absense of the dividing line causes the issue, they likely didn't add it in due to the box format for all the special entries. even Cronus doesn't have it and he certainly isn't a vindicator only entry. Hope that helps :)

[Praeger]

It's like arguing that an allied terminator squad can't take an assault cannon because the rules aren't inside their entry.

 

The Terminator's do have the assault cannon in their entry. It's one of their options, much like the scouts have a pile of options themselves. Telion isn't one of them.

 

This is EXACTLY the point. termies DO have that option under their unit optons, while the scouts do not.

 

Thats the difrence.

[SeattleDV8]

Telion's stat's are in the grey box below the scouts stat's in the army section. I would say that as he is not an IC and is an upgrade for scouts that it is legal.

[Souchan]

Telion's stat's are in the grey box below the scouts stat's in the army section. I would say that as he is not an IC and is an upgrade for scouts that it is legal.

 

And thusly not part of the scouts entry, just like all the other boxes are not part of the options of the units they are under. Though I will admit, they are placed in a position closest to the unit(s) that are required before they can be purchased. That doesn't stop them still having their own entry. Telion stands out as he and Cronus are the only entries that are purchased as a part of a different unit and not a seperate one in their own right.

 

Also I don't think there was ever any contention on him not being an IC.

 

However that being said, I know of no reason that if you want Telion in your allied scouts that bad you can't discuss it with your opponent to be allowed to take him. Do expect that if you try it in a tourney or if you don't inform your opponent, you might suffer certain conflicts due to the reasons mentioned so far that support him not being a possibility for allying.

 

Hope that helps :tu:

[drakkhenkc]

Wow...I actually got a response from GW from askyourquestion@games-workshop.com...

 

Q: In page 30 of the Daemonhunter codex, regarding "By the Authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind...", it states, "[Allied Space Marine Units] are taken exactly as they appear in Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Imperial Guard and may only use the options and upgrades listed there." Is it legal to take a Space Marine Scout Squad and upgrade the sergeant to Telion? What if I ally a Predator and add Chronos to the tank?

 

A: Daemonhunters and With Hunters cannot take Sgt Telion or Chronos. They are separate upgrades, not part of the scout squad or predator (in your example).

 

 

 

 

edit: spellin'

[Souchan]

It's not surprising that you get an answer, just such GW contacts are often regarded as irreuglar at best, as they aren't staffed by one person and can result in many different attempts each receiving it's own unique answer(at least, this is what I'm told about it).

 

Nice to see that whoever sent the mail agrees on the matter, so at least 1 person at GW does :tu:

[Praeger]

For a test, send back the same question to another countries GW, or add in just a bit more info saying you beleive it should be ok as it looks like an upgrade option.

 

You will get many difrent responses :unsure:

[Skoby]

The GW support service is no more official than just asking someone on here, in many cases they know the rules even worse. Me and a friend once got into a dispute over Orions unit strength in WHFB, I rang up, the guy wasnt sure, discussed it with all his mates there, took ages and eventually he came back to say it was 6. My mate rang up (about an hour later) and got the answer that it was 3. In the end we just rolled a dice everytime it came up as there were precidents for either case.

 

As for this, I wouldn't see it as any different to a unit having rhinos or other special gear that alters their rules/stat-lines. I see them as purely upgrades for the units and the only reason their statline is in a seperate box is a matter of asthetics and choice of the codex author. Codex Orks has 3 similar "upgrade charactors" which are included in the same box and in the same table of stats. However this can be unclear and is annoying as by the nature of the charactors they aren't used that often so can just clutter up the unit entry, when you have 3 different statlines in a single box, when you will only ever use 2 of them, it's just not really necessary.

 

I do see everyone elses interpretations, and if I was to use this tactic I'd makesure I had a backup list with the extra points spent elsewhere. But if someone asked to use these charactors I wouldn't mind at all.