Purity Seals?

[endless]

Hey, first post, hola!

So, I'm in the process of preparing my Heresy era Emperor's Children and have been filing away making MK IV leg armour and in the process removing the purity seals on all the marine legs. Now, as I intend to use mainly marine models rather than CSM, and these tend to be covered in seals that could end up being a big job. My question is, were purity seals awarded pre-heresy? If so, I can see the EC keeping theirs, fits the blasphemous image etc, though I'd still remove most of them it'd give me some leeway. Anybody know? Also, whilst I'm asking questions, does anyone know when Land Raider Prometheus was introduced, I really like the model but I'm pretty determined to get things as accurate as possible <_< ... Thanks in advance!

[KhornateKiller]

i think seals were after the heresy,

However one thing that was used in the heresy were oath papers i know the luna wolves used them and they could be stuck to the armour with wax, So u could leave them on and have them as oath papers.

My 2 cents

[Ensis Ferrae]

it makes sense to me to mention the oath papers, as the way i picture them in my head is exactly what the current marines call "purity seals"

 

though, i would think that having oaths of moment plastered onto your marines pre-heresy, would largely depend on what legion you were from, as i dont see people like world eaters, raven guard, scars, blood angels, iron warriors and the like having them... i would reserve this sort of thing for the more "religious" types of legion ie. word bearers, luna wolves (as they are explicitely mentioned in the HH books as doing it), smurfs, salamanders (mostly for their beliefs in their own promethean cult) and those sorts.

[Pacific81]

The main ethos behind the Great Crusade, as stated by the Emperor, was to bring the light of Imperial Truth to the lost branches of humanity. As such, it is wrong to think of any legion as being 'religious' in any sense - the only legion that really followed this line of reasoning was the Word Bearers, and remember that they had been reprimanded by the Emperor for hanging around building temples when they should have been moving on to blow stuff up :) Certainly there would not be the impetus to keep their souls 'pure' as marines in the current timeline, remember no marines have turned heretic at this point!

 

However, what we see alot of evidence of in the HH books is the peculiarities and rituals which are a similarity to the marines of the 41st millenium. Some examples of this are Loken keeping a dent in his weapon to remind him of a fight with orcs, the warrior lodges, the mournival etc. While these sometimes have little rational use, and therefore might be deemed out of keeping with the rest of the crusade, it shows that customs and traditions are still important to the Astartes. But then, how could they be expected to fight for 200 years and this not be the case?

 

So oaths of the moment are a big example of this, and I can imagine many legions having some similar example to this.

 

But practically you have a problem endless. Any PH models you keep with purity seals on will just be regarded as exactly that, and pre-heresy purists will remark that these were not found on marines at this time. So, my advice to you would be to take them off (if you have already commited yourself to a pre-heresy modelling project, then I'm sure you are not scared of hard work! :P ) and perhaps use green-stuff to create scrolls and things which are visibly small scrolls (or perhaps just remove the 'seal' part of the purity seals).

[endless]

ok, well, it just means a bit more filing then. Not a problem on the plastics, though it could get fiddly on the metals, oh well. ;) Thanks for the help!

[Logain the Ranger]

I wish I could take your purity seals. The marine army I'm making now cares a lot about proving they are pure from chaos taint.

[sgtNACHO]

Yeah i would do what Pacific said it sounds like he knows what he is doing :lol: Anyway unless your gaming group is really focused Heresy fluff I wouldn't go crazy over it. Its just a game after all, if you feel compelled to remove them then do it if you feel lazy (like me) or you believe this is right then don't simple. Its your game never forget that.

[Lord Commander Vespasian]

Purity seals themselves did not exist at this point.

 

However there were two distinct forerunners of the purity seal which did exist in the 31st Millenium. These had an extremely similar appearance to the purity seals of the 41st Millenium; but importantly had very different purposes. The first of these was the Oath of Moment and the second form is somthing that I have named a 'Roll of Honour'.

 

'Roll of Honour':

A 'Roll of Honour' lists all of the battle honours and deeds of an individual Space Marine. There is an excellent description of one in Fulgrim, which describes those belonging to Solomon:

 

 

(Fulgrim @ Page 139)

Fresh honours were secured to his shoulder guards by gobbets of red wax, his deeds of valour recorded on long strips of creamy vellum.

 

 

 

Here we get a very clear picture of the appearance of these 'Rolls of Honour', which is basically that of a purity seal. 'Rolls of Honour' can list many deeds and as we have seen can be augmented and added to.

 

Oaths of Moment:

 

Oaths of Moment are very precisely and specifically tied to one specific action. So each Space Marine must take a new Oath of Moment prior to every battle. Once more their appearance is similar to that of the purity seal; however their purpose and inscription if different. The following is the inscription written upon the Oath Paper removed from Garviel Loken's shoulderpad by Horus:

 

 

(Horus Rising @ Page 196)

'Do you, Garviel Loken, accept your role in this?' The Warmaster read out. 'Do you promise to lead your men into the zone of war, and conduct them to glory, no matter the ferocity or ingenuity of the foe? Do you swear to crush the insurgents of Sixty-Three Nineteen, despite all they might throw at you? Do you pledge to do honour to the XVI Legion and the Emperor?'

 

 

Although the method of affixing the Oath is not mentioned in this particular source, others point to the fact that such Oaths can also have wax seals attached to them:

 

 

(False Gods @ Page 98)

Loken nodded and handed the wax seal to the Warmaster as he rose to his feet.

Blood welled briefly from the cut and Horus dipped the oath paper in the clotting red fluid before affixing the oath paper to his breastplate and grinning broadly at them all.

 

 

Oaths of moment are described as being 'long and trailing' pieces of parchment, so perhaps in appearance they should be longer than many later purity seals.

 

Oath papers are also not always removed from armour after being used. Somtimes they are kept on the armour in order to visually signify a warrior's loyalty and prowess, as shown by this description of Captain Ehrlen of the World Eaters for example:

 

(Galaxy in Flames @ Page 256)

The warrior wasted no breath on words and simply jerked a thumb in the direction of a warrior with dozens of fluttering oath papers hanging from his breastplate.

 

 

The World Eaters Captain has a great number of oath papers attached to his armour; as might be expected from a member of a Legion which prides itself on martial prowess.

 

So although purity seals did not exist, the use of both Oaths of Moment and 'Rolls of Honour' were prevelant amongst Space Marines during the Pre-Heresy/ Heresy period. As already seen their appearance was extremely similar, so miniatures with 'purity seals' on them would be absolutely fine and would completely fit with the current background.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I doubt purity seals would be awarded as purity seals pre-heresy, there is no significance in being pure until the traitors exist.

[battle captain corpus]

As a foot note though, are there any references Legions other than the Luna Wolves took Oathes of Moment?

Of course they all may have something simlar...

I say just model them anyway! ;)

 

BCC

[Pacific81]

So although purity seals did not exist, the use of both Oaths of Moment and 'Rolls of Honour' were prevelant amongst Space Marines during the Pre-Heresy/ Heresy period. As already seen their appearance was extremely similar, so miniatures with 'purity seals' on them would be absolutely fine and would completely fit with the current background.

 

/Continuing exactly the same discussion we have had on thegreatcrusade.co.uk ^_^

 

But this leaves you with practical problems: Firstly, that to the unintiated they just look like purity seals and will be regarded as such, and make the marine look less 'pre-heresy' and more like a 40k era marine and secondly, that many gamers who are knowledgeable about this will remark "but marines before the heresy didn't use purity seals LOL" before you have to explain to them that yes, you understand these, but they actually represent oaths of the moment.

 

(I agree with everything else you have said though Vespasian!)

[AbyssKnight]

As a foot note though, are there any references Legions other than the Luna Wolves took Oathes of Moment?

 

Lord Commander Vespasian did use examples for brothers of the World Eaters and Emperor's Children in his post above, so......Yes.

[greatcrusade08]

does anyone know when Land Raider Prometheus was introduced, I really like the model but I'm pretty determined to get things as accurate as possible :) ... Thanks in advance!

 

I cant find any reference to a date of its creation, i know that it was invented by the salamanders and prometheus is the name of their fortress-monastary.

The rules for LRP were written in 4th edition, its a speciailist command tank with 2x2 sets of heavy bolters.

Full details can be found in: Imperial armour volume II

 

GC08

 

My 2 cents, as it was created by a first founding legion you could put the date as far back as the HH

 

 

Just because i am a geek :)

 

 

The Land Raider was first designed and built during the Dark Age of Technology when humankind first moved into space. Its construction method was incorporated into the great STC systems and was presumably deployed over hundreds of worlds. When the Age of Strife came upon the galaxy, production of this vehicle ceased with many worlds overrun by the forces of Chaos. During the Great Crusade the Land Raider STC design was rediscovered, allowing their manufacture. These vehicles were incorporated into Imperial forces and used as heavy transports and linebreakers as well as mobile command centres and sometimes Titan hunters in larger engagements.

Land Raiders are used by both the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines due to their rediscovery prior to the Horus Heresy.

 

Land Raider:

Worlds of Production: Originally Anvilus 9 produced many, but now produced in small numbers by many Forge Worlds

Models: I-VII

Weight (unladen): 72 tonnes

Weight (laden): 81 tonnes

Length: 10.36m

Height: 4.11m

Hull Width: 6.1m

Ground Clearance: 0.45m

Max. Speed (road): 51kph

Max. Speed (off-road): 48kph

Max Fording Depth: 36.57m

Armour: 91-95mm

Armour construction: 2 layers of Ceremite, 1 titanum/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivilent to 365mm conventional steel armour

Crew: 2/3 Commander, Driver and sometimes another, unknown duty

 

The Land Raider is armed with a hull-mounted twin-linked Heavy Bolter and two side sponsons each with twin linked Lascannons. It may also take a pintle mounted Storm Bolter. The Lascannons are of the Godhammer Kz9.76 design, requiring replacement barrels after 2000 shots.

 

The Land Raider Crusader was originally designed by the Black Templars to provide vast amounts of anti-infantry fire before disgorging the Black Templars to mow down the survivors. It was designed during the Jerulas Crusade (645.M39

 

The Land Raider Redeemer is a heavy assault tank used by the Space Marines. The armament consists of 1 twin-linked Assault Cannon, 2 sets of AP3 Heavy Flamers in the side sponsons and 1 Multi-melta.

 

The Land Raider Prometheus is a specialist command tank based on Land Raider Chassis. The armament consists of 2 sponsons, each weaponed with 2 twin-linked heavy bolters (4 weapons by sponson)

 

The Land Raider Helios is a long range bombardment vehicle. The Helios was first developed by the Red Scorpions Chapter. The armament consists of 2 pairs of twin-linked Lascannons in the side sponsons and one Whirlwind multiple missile launcher.

 

The Spartan was a Land Raider variant designed during the Horus Heresy. The Spartan had the standard Land Raider armament of the day.

 

The Hellfire Land Raider was the standard Land Raider variant of W40k's Rogue Trader era, available at the time to Space Marine, Imperial Guard and Rogue Trader armies. It was armed with sponson-mounted lascannons and a pintle-mounted bolter.

 

The Terminus Ultra pattern of the Land Raider is the ultimate in Space Marine anti-armour vehicles. It has no troop carrying capability in order to mount more lascannons capable of penetrating power fields and the thickest armour. The Terminus Ultra has one disadvantage, the huge power build-up generated when a Terminus Ultra fires can cause severe damage to the vehicle's systems. Because of this it is only used when there are no other options left available. Only when the battle force encounters the largest armoured target are these machines deployed from the Armorium. With a single salvo a Terminus Ultra can cripple a super-heavy tank, demolish a Chaos Titan or destroy an Ork Stompa.

[Lord Commander Vespasian]

So although purity seals did not exist, the use of both Oaths of Moment and 'Rolls of Honour' were prevelant amongst Space Marines during the Pre-Heresy/ Heresy period. As already seen their appearance was extremely similar, so miniatures with 'purity seals' on them would be absolutely fine and would completely fit with the current background.

 

/Continuing exactly the same discussion we have had on thegreatcrusade.co.uk ^_^

 

But this leaves you with practical problems: Firstly, that to the unintiated they just look like purity seals and will be regarded as such, and make the marine look less 'pre-heresy' and more like a 40k era marine and secondly, that many gamers who are knowledgeable about this will remark "but marines before the heresy didn't use purity seals LOL" before you have to explain to them that yes, you understand these, but they actually represent oaths of the moment.

 

(I agree with everything else you have said though Vespasian!)

 

Thanks Pacific! ;) I saw this thread and couldn't resist adding my article on the topic.

 

I do agree with you about the practical problems presented. Though I would personally make the parchment of the Oaths of Moment and Rolls of Honour much longer than those of purity seals...

 

...But of course none of this addresses the fine points that you have raised Pacific . I guess that we will just have to go on our own Great Crusade to initiate the ignorant! ;) :lol:

[AbyssKnight]

Found another example.

 

Their (the Sisters of Silence) armor was polished to a glittering sheen, unadorned by any brash sigils or fluttering oath papers like the pale wargear of the Death Guard.