Word Bearers versus Night Lords

[Archnomad]

Well, I play Night Lords at the moment. However I am doing a new army over the Christmas period, and cannot decide between Night Lords and Word Bearers. Pros and Cons below:

 

Night Lords

Pros:

Cool bat helms

Lightning!!

Fun playstyle

Cons:

A proper night lords list is quite inefficient in the new book. As CSMs>Raptors. Due to troops scoring etc.

Lightning is a nightmare >.>

 

Word Bearers

Pros:

Cool looking standards, texts, books and colour scheme.

Daemons. And a huge model count (my hypothetical list at 2k has 100 models =D)

Lots of scoring units

Cons:

Slowish

Lots of painting

 

 

 

Now I would like you to convince me which Legion to go for. The main thing stopping me doing my Night Lords is the rather lacklustre raptors (which were my favourite unit in 4th) we have this edition. I can't really see any reason to take them.

 

Thanks in advance

 

~{Archy}~

[chillin]

What makes you say WB's are slowish ??

They can have rinos, LR's, raptors and bikes, just like any other legion (except DG maybe)

 

I believe there was a whole thread about this just a couple of weeks ago (wasn't there ?), use searchy or just scroll back a few pages on this forum.

[Legatus]

Well, I play Night Lords at the moment. However I am doing a new army over the Christmas period, and cannot decide between Night Lords and Word Bearers.

Wait, you already play Night Lords. So they can't be your new army. Problem solved.

 

Pros:

Cool bat helms

That's not a pro...

 

Cons:

A proper night lords list is quite inefficient in the new book.

I am inclined to disagree. And Raptors are not mandatory NL choices, btw. CSM in Rhinos will do just fine.

 

You don't need that many scoring units in 5th. 1/3 of the time mission objectives are not used at all. 1/3 of the time there will be 2 objectives. 1/3 of the time there are 5. Do you really need as much scoring units as you can get? I would say 4 is enough for average games.

I am still not entirely convinced that demons count as scoring btw. They don't come from your armies Troop allowance. But I hope that will be decided in a FaQ some day.

 

Generally, you can take demons in a Night Lord army and Raptors in a Word Bearers army. I would go more by the style and attitude. Do you like black/brass/gold with lightning more, or do you prefer dark red/metal, with occult inscriptions and flames? Do yo uwant to take masses of slaves and convert them to the true gods, or do you just want to slaughter worthless lambs because you are bad mofos?

 

Why Raptors are super cool? Because in earlier Codices, Assault Marines have cost 25 and then 22 points, while Raptors have cost 35 and then 30 points. Now they are 20. They lost some rules, but yeah! Jump pack marines for 20 points. Make them elite Raptors by giving them the Icon of +1 attack. See what I did there? :(

[Night Stalker]

Yeah, raptors do quite well.

 

Also, NL prefer raid warfare, so those units are cool:

 

All Tanks

Terminators

Raptors

Bikers

Havoc and CSM in Rhino/lr

few obliterators

Lord/sorcerer/dp

 

I'd say they are more than enought to stand against any opponent.

 

Hell, i use those units [without marks mind you] and i have great L/W/D ratio [i'm experienced player, this is reason why, but if you'll open your mind and try new tactics, you'll win]

 

lighting is pain, but how much lighting you have on a model ? 2-4 on troops/raptors. it's not THAT hard ... i know - i painted more than few minis ...

[Brother Nihm]

Fun playstyle

What makes it fun for you?

Lightning is a nightmare >.>

It's quite easy actually.

Now I would like you to convince me which Legion to go for. The main thing stopping me doing my Night Lords is the rather lacklustre raptors (which were my favourite unit in 4th) we have this edition. I can't really see any reason to take them.

Then don't, Night Lords aren't ONLY about raptors you know. They're about overwhelming the enemy, scaring them witless by destroying the enemies' will to fight, making lightning strikes, infiltrating and causing havoc and most importantly, they're the bump that goes KILL-YOU! in the night.

A proper night lords list is quite inefficient in the new book.

I am inclined to disagree. And Raptors are not mandatory NL choices, btw. CSM in Rhinos will do just fine.

Hear hear.

My 2 Kraks

[Archnomad]

Oh I completely agree with everything you all said. I know all that, it's just for the Night Lords style of warfare Raptors fit in, and they are sort of our Legion mascot. We were the first to have them I believe. So to answer you each in turn:

 

chillin:

 

My Word Bearers are slowish because of the 12 man squads, which is the typical squad size for Word Bearers. To be fair it says around 12, but I would like a slogging list to contrast my existing Night Lords.

 

Legatus:

 

I would like to do a new force though. I just love building up an army. It's my second favourite aspect of this hobby (first being gaming). And I love those bat helms ¬¬

 

I have already stated about Raptors at the top ^. As the founder of Raptors I feel wrong without them. But I can't justify to myself taking them when our troops choice in a rhino is better in almost every way.

 

4 Scoring units is ~ 1050 points. With an HQ, and anti tank I'm left with pretty much nada.

 

And I already did the Khorne one ^^

 

However I agree on the attitude, the only problem is I love both armies fluff and general look on the battlefield. >.> Hehe.

 

 

Nightstalker:

 

All tanks? I don't really see Predators or Vindicators. Defilers for the fear factor, and Land Raiders as assault boats I could see.

 

I have no problems winning, I have been playing this game for a long time :D.

 

As to lightning, well my first 2 squads of basic marines have lightning all over, and now it just looks out of place to have any less. My own bleeding fault I suppose xD

 

Nihm: ( was waiting for you to turn up ;))

 

With Night Lords I love the in your face brutality of the army. My Night Lord army is all transports Deep Strikers and fast stuff. I can be where I want, when I want and there aint much the enemy can do about it. With Word Bearers I love the feeling of being unstoppable. Having 100 models in a chaos army is quite intimidating. I'm sure I will end up doing both... Just which one first.

 

Ahh, you do lightning differently from me. Thanks for the guide though, if I do choose NLs, I will try it that way and see what happens. Thank you ;)

 

I know they aren't only about Raptors. But like I said I feel bad without at least one unit. I know Night Lord doctrine, I love their fluff. I trust you have read Lord of the Night? If not, great read =)

 

And finally I know they arent mandatory, but again, I feel guilty.

 

 

 

Thanks for the replies though, this has made me want to go back to the Night Lords. I will give my mind until.... Next Saturday. I don't want to choose the wrong army.

[Legatus]

When I started Night Lords there where no Raptors around. So when the developers came up with them and made them the Night Lords trademark unit, all I can say is: "Yeah? Hm, well. Kay."

 

(And when the miniature designers came up with the bat helmets I was like: "Whaaa? Noooo!")

[Archnomad]

Haha touché. To be fair that probably happened before I was born, although, I started playing in late 3E (I started young).

 

Been looking more and more at Night Lords, and I think I have found the source of my problem. In the old book, we had genuinely scary champions and whatnot, and people were reluctant to get into combat with us because of that. Well now we are slightly more threatening than a tactical squad (unmarked of course). So the "fear factor" of my old Night Lords army is gone. Well, I might just have to adapt.

 

Another thing pushing me to Word Bearers. I have quite a lot of Daemons and An'ggrath the Unbound. I can't use those with my Night Lords, however, I can with Word Bearers.

 

Choices choices. Well, I have until December to decide (then I better get started for the new year campaign we are having).

[Brother Nihm]

Another thing pushing me to Word Bearers. I have quite a lot of Daemons and An'ggrath the Unbound. I can't use those with my Night Lords, however, I can with Word Bearers.

Sure you can. :rolleyes:

From the new Codex:

A small flotilla of Night Lord ships slips through the Cadian gate and spend months in the warp avoiding detection. Scound's Fall, a small planet located 100 light years from Terra is chosen as a target because of it's large Schola Progenium Abbey, the training grounds for future Imperial Admirals, Commissars, Storm Troopers and Sisters of Battle. After seven days of fighting there are no survivors left from the Night Lords' attack and the butchered remains from both sides are laid out in talismanic patterns, to help with the summoning of a daemonic horde. Daemons rampage across half the world while the Night Lords head for the Eye of Terror, eluding Imperial warships intent on their capture.

 

I can imagine that a being as powerful as An'ggrath needs 'payment in blood' as well.

[the jeske]

They don't come from your armies Troop allowance. But I hope that will be decided in a FaQ some day.

read the rules in the BBB about scoring . they say nothing about being part of the force organisation slots . all you need is to be troops choice[check ] and infantry[check]. demons are scoring and no FAQ is needed for that .

[Archnomad]

I am actually thinking of using the new Loyalist codex for a few reasons:

 

1. Most of the units fit in pretty well here. Night Lords aren't all about Raptor spam and stealth adept. Their combat doctrine is come down on one force with overwhelming force and speed. Absolutely crush all before you. And in the new book i can do that.

 

2. Following one, I would like to use Drop Pods. It seems to fit fluff and why we never got these is beyond me. They are Pre Heresy equipment.

 

3. I would be able to run a competative army, with the feel and playstyle my old Night Lords had. Without being penalised for it, as in the current book we gimp ourselves if we take any other choice. As opposed to "General renegade 1242" who can take everything and make a very nasty list.

 

Thoughts?

 

P.s. if I took Word Bearers, it would be in codex Chaos Marines of course, and Nihm, I would play "puritanical" night lords. No daemons.

[Legatus]

read the rules in the BBB about scoring

Okidok

 

"An army's scoring units are all the units that come from the Troops allowance."

 

So, what I said.

[the jeske]

yep . and demons do . they are just not a part of compulsory troops you need to take .

[Archnomad]

*pokes with stick* Back on topic. :P

[blood_raven_240]

Word Bearers :P

 

WB = Totally Cool.

[Legatus]

*pokes with stick* Back on topic.

Aw, come on...

 

yep . and demons do . they are just not a part of compulsory troops you need to take .

They are not part of the 6 troop choices you are permitted to have either.

 

Thoughts?

I am not that big of a fan of playing chaos marines with the loyalist Codex.

[Hellios]

The Chaos codex should allow a lord on a bike to take bikers as troops, the chaos codex should have rules for drop pods (you could use the FW drop pod rules?).

 

As Night Lords are often seen as being the least chaotic of the legions (although one of the most scary) if any legion can be represented with it :S

 

That white scar guy allowing you to flank (even vehicles) and take bikers as troops, you can take deep striking terminators and assault squads/vanguard (Raptors), you can take drop pods.

 

I understand why people don't want to use the loyalist dex but I must say I considered doing a Night Lords army using it. I just don't have the time and money at the moment.

[Archnomad]

My thoughts exactly. One that has grabbed my attention is the deep striking libby power. That just seems night lordy to me. A badass chosen (vanguard) unit appearing right next to you. Eek!

 

I doubt I would take the outflank. That seems more Alpha Legionesque. I would just take a nasty combat lord on jump pack. Here's what I'm thinking:

 

1 Combat HQ(captain/master) with jump pack

1 Libby with DS power and jump pack

1 Vanguard unit with Jump packs

1 Dread with Drop Pod

3 Tactical Marine units in pods

1 Assault Marine Unit

2 Predators

 

 

Thoughts? Will that fit in 1500? I'm not too familiar with the new marine book yet.

[Askari]

First of all, you can take a fast list with the Chaos codex and Night lords lists can be easily made with the current codex and are pretty competitive. Raptors and bikes plus infiltrating chosen and troops with icon of chaos glory. Drop pod armies aren't fast, they're static. Our troops can take two special weapons instea of a special and a heavy and since sitting back and using heavies is hard to justify in a NL army where as geting up close and firing two meltas into your oppoennt's face before charging isn't. And most night lords worship chaos now. Except for the HQ's they can take icons and lesser daemons though they wouldn't have cult troops.

 

The reason chaos marines can't take bikes as troops if they have a bike lord is because there is no fluff that talks about all bike chaos armies where as space marines have reserve companies that can fight using all bikes and the white scars. besides, an all bike army isn't night lords. The things that made night lords special in the last codex (stealth and the ability to ignore night fight and items that lowered enemy lead.) aren't available in the space marine army list so there's no reason to use the space marine codex to make a fluffy army.

[chillin]

One that has grabbed my attention is the deep striking libby power. That just seems night lordy to me. A badass chosen (vanguard) unit appearing right next to you. Eek!

 

1 Libby with DS power and jump pack

1 Vanguard unit with Jump packs

 

Why would you take the libby w/ DS power and give him a vanguard unit to DS and THEN pay even more to give them all jumppacks ????

If they have the libby to DS them, why do they need jumppacks ??

If they have jumppacks why do they need the libby to DS them ??

 

Am I missing something ? This doesn't seem to make sense to me :D

[Askari]

The Ds power lets you DS after you deploy. But the vanguard definately shouldn't be deployed with the Libby because they can't use heroic intervention if joined by an IC.

 

You get two powers free on the libby so take null zone and force dome and upgrade him to epistolary. Put him with the regular assault squad so that the vanguards can use heroic intervention and so that you won't have so many points in one unit.

[Archnomad]

In order:

 

Speed does not make a Night Lords army. We are not the "Dark Raven Guard" (as our 3.5E was coined where i game). We use exceptional force. We like to crack nuts with a full scale nuclear launch. Heavies aren't exactly hard to justify, as, like I said, we do use Heavy Weaponry. We do have seige equipment. We use titans. This is something that annoys me, people seem to think Night Lords have to have every unit exceptionally fast. Fear factor and overwhelming force comes first. Speedy raids comes later.

 

I play puritanical Night Lords as I said earlier. No daemons.

 

The things that made the Night Lords in the previous dex was the ability to have an army that was fun to play and in the enemies face from the get go. You can't do this in the current book. You can in the current marine book.

 

chillin I never said that the libby was with the vanguard.

 

 

 

However, after having thoroughly read the Marines book, and cooked up a list, here's what I had.

 

Shrike (his rules are very similar to my 3.5E list, infiltrating raptors!!)

2 Tactical Squads tooled and in Drop Pods with locator Beacons

10 Assault Marines Champ w/ Fist

8 Vanguard Veterans, champ w/relic blade, fist, 2 power weps

2 Preds with AC/2HBs

 

Leaving me points to spare. Now, a while back I was tasked to make a really badass troops choice for a tournament. Now, they were basic Chaos Space Marines. But they are so tooled up. They have bolters that are all customised, they are all in converted poses, with iconography all over their armour, as well as fetished like skulls and hands and whatnot. They look like their almost chosen.Today I went to the store and I had my chaos army out with the marine book, and was sitting assigning units to roles when a friend came up and said "what ya doing?" I filled him in on my plan and he asked if I still had that badass troop unit. When I said yes he said why not use them as sternguard. Thoughts on this?

 

Thanks in advance =)

[Hellios]

First of all, you can take a fast list with the Chaos codex and Night lords lists can be easily made with the current codex and are pretty competitive. Raptors and bikes plus infiltrating chosen and troops with icon of chaos glory. Drop pod armies aren't fast, they're static. Our troops can take two special weapons instea of a special and a heavy and since sitting back and using heavies is hard to justify in a NL army where as geting up close and firing two meltas into your oppoennt's face before charging isn't. And most night lords worship chaos now. Except for the HQ's they can take icons and lesser daemons though they wouldn't have cult troops.

 

The reason chaos marines can't take bikes as troops if they have a bike lord is because there is no fluff that talks about all bike chaos armies where as space marines have reserve companies that can fight using all bikes and the white scars. besides, an all bike army isn't night lords. The things that made night lords special in the last codex (stealth and the ability to ignore night fight and items that lowered enemy lead.) aren't available in the space marine army list so there's no reason to use the space marine codex to make a fluffy army.

 

 

I wasn't advocating an all bike army but night lords hit hard, mass X speed etc. As an example for a NL army.

 

White Scars character

 

Jump pack Chapter master

 

Terminators flanking in a land raider (or could deepstrike without raider), personally I would use redeemer because its cool but the Chaos forces apparently don't use them :'(

 

2 Dreadnoughts in drop pods (deepstrike)

 

2 10 man tacticals with Rhinos and Drop Pods (can flank or deepstrike)

 

2 5 man bike squads (Fast can flank)

 

10 man assault squad (fast can flank)

 

5 man Vanguard (fast can flank)

 

This would be about 3,000 points I guess, is a small elite force and can hit hard from anywhere which is about as close to terrifying as you can get in 40k without having either tons of scary stuff (Huge monsters/tanks) or 600 gribbly things (orks/Gaunts)

 

 

Also as smaller warbands conform to whatever the Lord in charge wishes a Chaos raider force could easily consist of just bikers, or just terminators , etc(Although it would be a fortunate lord who could acquire that number of TDA and marines trained in the use of TDA.)

[Archnomad]

Well, I'm torn between bikes and pods. I think I might go for pods as It's cheaper than bikes. I already have Chaos Marines. :)

 

And I still think Outflank is more Alpha Legionesque ^^

[northoceanbeach]

I've got to go with the SM codex. I've been using it for 6 weeks now and it's a blast, much more fun than the chaos dex and I've still got tons I want to do with it.

 

Night Lords have to be fast. I don't care what anyone else says, yes they use overwhelming force but they do it quickly so you don't have time to react. Then they are gone.

 

My ideal list would be something like

 

Khan

3 10 man biker squads

2 10 man raptor squads

dreadnought in a drop pod

1750

 

However those bikes are expensive, so I'll not be doing that anytime soon. These days I'm uising shrike with 2 10 man assaults and some sternguard and tacticals. It's fun and effective.