Female Marines Article Discussion

[Black and White]

Why do they have to be Marines? Cant you be content to have them represented by Marine rules but something else entirely?

Sure I can. See the "bionic enhancements" idea, which could be feasible on a small scale. The "super steroids" idea however, just doesn't work. But unlike any of these, a re-keyed geneseed would make replacing losses easier, relatively speaking. The human body is not like the Ork or Marine body, it's a bit fragile-- ergo, the bionics may end up being wasted due to a biological failure.

 

The reason people want to go with them being Astartes is because there are few other ways to justify the increased strength, durability, and speed that even the basic Marine has. For example, an experienced Celestian will more than likely be able to match a Marine in speed and possibly exceed them in skilll, but they still have the human strength and durability (or one should say, the lack thereof). Counting them as Marines without a fluff justification is something I will not do. I play this game for the fluff.

 

Assassins have the same stats as marines, and yet are not marines. However thats probably a one in a million thing.

 

Anyways, as a strong female marine dissenter, there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. The pro-femmes appear to the backed by the B&C regime and we're forced to accept/tolerate/not whine about their out of the box ideas, no matter how ludicrous they are (especially if anyone remembers the dark -elves with grav chutes and lasguns as 'super-marine marine-hunters' from a while back, although there may have been a verdict on those not being allowed, I stopped following after a while).

 

It would be interesting to see what a community wide poll would reveal about how many players feel that people trying to 'seriously' justify female marines as 'in line' with the 40k universe, are actually taking a dump on that very same universe. Perhaps such a poll has been conducted already and I missed it. Unfortunately this forum is not a democracy and as such the results would be meaningless anyways.

 

I think people like to display divergences (Hey look! I'm in divergence X! Aren't I cool!?! I know you think I'm looney but there is NOTHING you can do about it. So EVERYTHING I do or say is going to include a reference to divergence X! WEEEE POWER! If you don't like our display of divergence X, you can just leave now and shut up about it!) in public where they know other people are not allowed to object because it gives them a feeling of power.

 

Anyways, Marshal2, its best to drop it. As long as the other side has the support of the regime, trying to reason with the pro-females side goes nowhere, trust me, I know.

 

That being said, slaanesh certainly could alter a marine into a 'female' state (but due to the random nature of chaos, unlikely on an exclusive and large scale), and Bile -might- be able to enhance a female to marine like status using whatever arcane knowledge he has, however I doubt that would occur on a mass scale (bile has never been described as having an entire personal army, as far as I know, especially since his character seems to be more 'mad scientist' motivated than evil conqueror type), and I doubt that even if he could and made an army that he would choose female candidates exclusively.

[Severus6]

I am going to reiterate what has already been said numerous times now and gents this is the first, final, and only warning you will get. The bottom line is simple, if you dont like or agree with this topic stay away from it and simply dont post. If you have something to add, constructive criticism, or pertinent questions, by all means fire away. Short of that, keep your comments to yourself. Last time gents,...last time,... :P

 

Severus6

[Silber]

Maybe it's worth considering their, uhmm.... look. You know, I once thought about Space Marinettes, too, until I realized that what happens to the common Space Marine would happen to them, too. Body-improvement wise. Immideatly the picture of that female bodybuilder thing saying in an Isaac Hayes Voice "I'm feeling more like a female than ever" whose unsuspecting witness I was (zapping after midnight - stupid me) sprang to my mind. Keep that in mind, folks...

 

I know it already turned up a couple of times when talking about the female Marines. I just wanted to suggest mentioning this issue in your article. I'm actually one of those heretics that likes the idea, if only....

[Melissia]

Maybe it's worth considering their, uhmm.... look. You know, I once thought about Space Marinettes, too, until I realized that what happens to the common Space Marine would happen to them, too. Body-improvement wise. Immideatly the picture of that female bodybuilder thing saying in an Isaac Hayes Voice "I'm feeling more like a female than ever" whose unsuspecting witness I was (zapping after midnight - stupid me) sprang to my mind. Keep that in mind, folks...

I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not like Space Marines are particularly attractive either, they aren't intended to be.

 

I guess it should be included in the article? I dunno really, it doesn't seem important to me...

[Doctor Thunder]

Maybe it's worth considering their, uhmm.... look. You know, I once thought about Space Marinettes, too, until I realized that what happens to the common Space Marine would happen to them, too.

I don't think we need to include any guidelines about what the female marines should look like in their fluff. Best to leave that up to the individual players.

[Octavulg]

Space Marines have muscle mass. Logically, so do female Space Marines. Women with lots of muscle are noted for their lack of "bewbs".

 

Conversely, many female Space Marines have bewbs. In abundance.

 

I think Silber was pointing out that such things aren't exactly likely.

[Doctor Thunder]

I think Silber was pointing out that such things aren't exactly likely.

Wouldn't the physical appearance of the female marines depend entirely on the particulars of their origination story?

[Octavulg]

True. OTOH, Female Marines (as in, same process, different gender), almost certainly would be different in such a fashion.

[Doctor Thunder]

True. OTOH, Female Marines (as in, same process, different gender), almost certainly would be different in such a fashion.

Male marines cursed into female forms by Slaanesh could look vastly different then Female Marines created from Amazons and cursed founding geneseed, and both could be vastly different to female marines fielded by a human group isolated from the rest of humanity since before the dark age of technology.

 

 

Given the broad spectrum of possibilities, ranging from extremely feminine to extremely masculine, wouldn't it be best to simply leave the particulars up to the individual authors?

[Octavulg]

Arguably.

 

OTOH, vastly increasing women's muscle mass, tesosterone and physical size has one rather obvious effect in the real world. He's just (rightly, IMO) pointing it out. At minimum, such changes not taking place needs to be explained.

 

Slaanesh, of course, remains 100% immune to this rule. :P

[ShotgunFacelift]

The Spurned Chaos God or Gifts of Slaanesh sound the most feasible to use in a Semi Strict gaming group.

 

With no particular variations to normal Chaos Marine Characteristics, these would just be very odd looking CSM's.

 

This leaves the author free to play with the possibilities of a power armored female physique without the tooth and nail rules battle.

 

But for pure Fluff games with like minded gamers the Recovering SM Chapter making do with the population they have, sounds interesting especially for DIY players.

Similarly with the Ommited Cursed founding Chapter idea.

 

Both options give you free reign in regards to Fluff, and moderate guidelines for rules development.

 

This has definitly planted a seed in my verdant fields of grey matter........might have something in the modelling section soon to follow.

[General Ravensong]

Origination Idea: The Emperor wanted to hear the pitter patter of babymarines across the battlefield... Because he foresaw the eventual breakdown of the Primarchs' Geneseed... or because the universe is a lonely place, and who better to spend eternity with than someone every bit as badass as you.

 

Overview: Alright, follow my pseudo-science here. Every male is born with both an X and a Y chromosome. It's conceivable then that if one wanted to "clone" a man one could choose the gender of the clone in deciding whether to include an X and a Y or two X's. With this logic, one could see how the missing primarchs might well have had a double dose of the emperors X chromosomes. Or, even more recently a stock of Ultramarine geneseed may have been altered to make female marines with hopes of eventually phasing out the mutations present in the geneseeds of other chapters... In a search for a cure to the black rage the Blood Angels apothecaries may have obtained the geneseed from another chapter to add untainted female marines to their ranks for similar reasons.

The Emperor might well have foreseen the genetic instability of the first generation and intended for his children to be a sexually reproducing race in their own right. As we learn in biology the advantage of sexual reproduction is that the genetic variation would allow to prevent genetic defects such as hemophilia, Sickle Cell Anemia, or, perhaps, the Black Rage. Using sickle cell as an example, if say, black person with full blown sickle cell had a kid with someone of a completely different race who has no chance of being a carrier for the disease then the resulting children would show severely reduced symptoms and as the trend continued eventually the disease would be wiped out of the genepool. If, say, a Blood Raven displays heavy symptoms of the black rage were to make babymarines with a marine from the all female Angels of Rectification Chapter the resulting marines would exhibit either greater resistance to the rage or not have it at all, with male babymarines joining the father's chapter and females joining the mother's.

The current method of producing more space marines may have initially been to quickly swell their ranks to deal with the threats at hand, and over time phase out each chapters genetic instabilities... through the power of love.

As for why the chapter was lost we could go with any of the reasons previously listed. We could also go with their records were lost during the heresy or perhaps forced into stasis by the forces of chaos, knowing that even if they could not defeat the Empire in the near future, the lack of genetic variation would eventually cause every chapter's stock of geneseed to become unstable and unsalvagable, removing mankind's last defenders from the playing fields. The Gods of Chaos, being timeless would very likely have a different concept of time and would likely not care when victory came, in fact they may see the continuing war as a game, or a contest to see who can most widely spread their influence before mankind falls.

Further possibilities for the existence of female marines might simply be for the mental stability of his "sons". In the end, brotherhood only goes so far, and can't play the same role as a life partner, and in the end the space marines are human, and knowing that you might well outlive your spouse by several thousand years would make many timid to start a relationship, compounded with the knowledge that you will always be at war and never with your lover. If on the other hand, you were able to share the rest of your life with someone just as long lived and badass as you, such a partnership wouldn't be as readily shied away from (even if there was no chance at bearing children with them, humans are keyed for these kind of relationships, it's unlikely that marines would be much different)

[Silber]

Okay. What I did not want to say was that female Marines would probably not be very attractive and therefore not an interesting concept to pursue.

 

My point is this: If they were to be created as their more common brothers are they'd look quite similar to those, so why bother? Space Marine Bob isn't really a man, either. So if you don't have the greatest of ideas why your Space Marines should be made from females it's just pointless I think.

 

That is, if you don't have a good explanation why they do still look like females. A little bit, at least. Sciencewise a pre-teen girl treated with so much testosterone and stuff would look more like a man than most mortal man do. She'd even grow a beard.

 

Long story short, I think it's worth to be mentioned in the article because it's an important topic and it's keyed into the story behind the Marinettes. I myself have a squad of female Chaos Marines. No problem there. I considered a chapter of Loyalist Females until I realised that I don't have any idea why they should look any different from a standard male chapter. Perhaps they are female....?

[Philip S]

What if the 'marines are male' is a technicality?

 

Looking at marines, they may start out as male and may end up looking 'super male' or an extreme male ideal, but when finished with process are they really male any more?

 

They do not act like males as such (limit sexual thoughts) and can not reproduce offspring with 'space marine' traits as these are all added later. Their children , if they are capable, would be regular humans though I think the augmentations may go more than skin deep (and 'implants'). It seems the Space Wolves are genetically with the Canis Helix, and the Blood Angel recruits are transformed from mutants into perfect specimens via that acheotech sarcophagus thingy. It seems that maries may undergo genetic manipulation, and if so, what if they are no longer truly 'male' as in sexuality/ gender but more a golem? (in the game 'Parasite Eve' sense)

 

This brings me to the genetic manipulation concept - if the male is transformed into a asexual marine, could a female be transformed into an asexual marine?

 

In base principles: if the marines have to be male to start out; could a woman, modified genetically to be 'male', be transformed into an asexual marine?

 

Technically there would be no 'female' space marines, or 'male' space marines only 'space marines'.

 

Next up, I suppose we have to consider why would they use females? Why not? If is easy to do them maybe.

 

At present the Sisters of Battle seem to be the female version of Space Marines with added faith powers. They also seem to be as tough as marines as a whole organisation, and they are actually tasked with policing the marines when they get out of line. The do this through cooperation and coordination of power. After chatting to female friends about this it seems they like the concept of the Sisters of Battle (in fact they liked it a lot) whereas the idea of female 'space marines' seemed, how shall we put this 'gay' (and yes gay female friends think this about right).

 

It seems to me that sci-fi and fantasy is all about dream and games, and the sexes/ genders while 'equal' in social stature and capability, go about things in different ways. I say this because Sisters appeal to female gamers (they seem to like the fact that they have full armour even though it curvy - a 'look but don't touch' attitude yet looks good and 'female', and proud!). They like the faith based powers and the cooperation and the matron non-sexual (!) feel to them. At a guess it seems the male power fantasy of killing machine has a match in the super matron in the 'mother is god on the lips of all children sense' where everyone is subordinate to the will of the mother (even the marines!)

 

So in designing the female 'space marines' and looking at the audience who will identify with 'super-masculine-females', and in essence what group this new archetypes will champion, then transforming females into male to become gods may not be such a stretch.

 

With a little tinkering and messing about, it could work. Perhaps Fabius find the long lost planet of Lesbos and set to work. or maybe some females from the human cline that nears towards Ogryn, or mixtures.

 

I think the trick to female space marines may all be in the story and background rather than an expansion of the marine archetype, and exception.

 

Perhaps the 'super butch female space marines' like to pick on the Sisters of Battle? Maybe they are renegade chapter of chaos marines who, because of the female element snapped back to being loyal and betrayed Fabius and now seeks acceptance; yet the Imperium will not accept them (sounds like a good gay female story line?). perhaps it is the Sisters who go after the female Space Marines as an 'abomination' (of the chaos gods), yet these abomination are except troops, loyal and care for humanity?

 

This would give a suitably twisted and convoluted story line. At the same time it opens the hobby up to yet more people by providing the hero hooks people look for in their power fantasies!

 

Philip

[Ferrata]

Remember people this thread is about how to get female marines, not if it is possible or what they would be like (that might become an issue, but at the moment it is not)

[Philip S]

Remember people this thread is about how to get female marines, not if it is possible or what they would be like (that might become an issue, but at the moment it is not)

Is this post prompted by my post?

 

Philip

[Ferrata]

Nope, just general direction of the thread.

[Melissia]

I'm not sure how on-topic this would be, but I really hate it when people say Sororitas are "the female version of Space Marines". They are most decidedly not, they are humans and their base troops choices have a GEQ statline with the exception of BS, leadership, and their armor save. So please, people, don't say that anymore in this thread. Even their elites choices have only increased WS and Initiative, keeping their T and S at human levels-- because they are human. Their special character, blessed by the powers of the Emperor Himself, only has increased strength through a special item, and it's only strength five. I will be so tempted to sick the Ordo Sicarius on you people if you say that the Sisters are the equivalent to female Marines :P

[Philip S]

Nope, just general direction of the thread.

:P

 

I'm not sure how on-topic this would be, but I really hate it when people say Sororitas are "the female version of Space Marines". They are most decidedly not, they are humans and their base troops choices have a GEQ statline with the exception of BS, leadership, and their armor save. So please, people, don't say that anymore in this thread. Even their elites choices have only increased WS and Initiative, keeping their T and S at human levels-- because they are human. Their special character, blessed by the powers of the Emperor Himself, only has increased strength through a special item, and it's only strength five.

Why do you hate it? A lot of good discussion lies that way.

 

While I agree with your sentiment, it does seem that the Sisters are an equivalent troop type with power armour and bolters, and most likely were the super tough warrior women of the Imperium end up. They do seem to be GW's version of feminised space marines rather than direct 'female space marines'.

 

I will be so tempted to sick the Ordo Sicarius on you people if you say that the Sisters are the equivalent to female Marines ;)

I'm not saying they are equivalent of female space marines, as the Sisters are superior! Well as a miliatry force anyway. It seems it's all down the sister to break renegade chapters and hunt down rogue elements.

 

Philip

[Barret]

As has already been stated, this thread is about Female Space Marines, not the Sisters of Battle. If they are relevant to the discussion, fine, but taking issue with comparing them to "female Marines", and debating that comparison, is not on topic.

[Philip S]

As has already been stated, this thread is about Female Space Marines, not the Sisters of Battle. If they are relevant to the discussion, fine, but taking issue with comparing them to "female Marines", and debating that comparison, is not on topic.

Seeing as this topic is about designing female space marines you are going to need a strong concept and be able to point out why they are different from the sisters of battle, which many (like it or not) think of the sisters as the current female space marines.

 

If you look at my concept thread above I was trying to define the difference in concept between the two.

 

As a rough outline of my thinking: In designing an unofficial modification to the 40k universe, you can jam the female space marine in any way you want and it's cool, but how you do it all depends on *what* you are designing. Having a good idea why you wan them and then deriving a clear concept based on those wants will make the process much easier; otherwise it's like designing a car but not knowing what type of car you are designing and what market. First things first. If you identify why you want them and define the concept, then the design will flow naturally, and in time it will become clear how to splice them into the background and in a way that gives maximum impact.

 

So I figure it's 'on topic', in that; the sisters are defining (in part) what these female space marines are not. Having this is mind may make the concept stronger. In that regard to subject of the sisters is going to come up now and again. No reason to be defensive, just make the concepts stronger!

 

besides, I was asking is Space Marines are really 'male' once the transformation is complete, and the females who go through the process may come out exactly the same!

 

Philip

[Forgeman]

If you identify why you want them and define the concept, then the design will flow naturally, and in time it will become clear how to splice them into the background and in a way that gives maximum impact.

 

I asked a similar question and got the following response:

 

There is no reason why there has to be a single solution to this issue. In science fiction, there are always many different possible paths. The purpose of this thread is to collect together as many different plausible female marine origination stories as possible. If you want to discuss your opinion as to what a female marine would look like, then you are welcome to make your own thread and discuss it there.

 

Besides, I was asking if Space Marines are really 'male' once the transformation is complete, and the females who go through the process may come out exactly the same!

 

What the female marine issue comes down to is people wanting to create female Adeptus Astartes with whatever sort of look that takes their fancy and not a single and coherent female marine archetype. This is why the moderators keep warning people about going off topic because as long as you want to simply say 'how about X, Y and Z as possible origin stories' then you are 'on-topic' but if you want to discuss how to create a single, coherent female marine archetpye, that inevitably requires discussion of more than just females marines [whatever they are] and so then you are 'off-topic'. (I might also add that my enquiring as to the motives behind wanting female space marines was not gratefully received).

 

To answer your question though, I offer the following Wiki quote, if you will permit me:

 

In humans and most animals, sex is determined genetically

 

Even after a boy is turned into a space marine he is still genetically male. The process of turning an ordinary boy into something as close to a primarch as possible (which is basically what the process is trying to do) is about enhancing human male attributes particularly physical strength and aggressiveness. I think what you are trying to say about a marine's general asexual behaviour has nothing to do with gender. A Marine's mind is this way to make him a more effective warrior and this conditioning (both as part of the indoctrination process and then learned from fellow marines) can and does break down and a marine can revert to being sexual again:

 

Take care, lest your protests grow tiresome. I have asked for so little! Anyone would think that I have asked you to sacrifice yourselves and all your family! And yet, in Slaanesh's boundless and pleasing mercy, I have asked only for your daughters. Surely you would not deny me my small enjoyments?

 

Obviously no loyal marine should ever break or even be in a situation where his conditioning might break but for renegades and the corrupted it does happen. There is a good decription for this in the novel 'Eye of Terror' where a Dark Angel is confronted with a daemonette but I don't have the book to hand to quote. Anyway, why should a marine be thought of as not male simply for lack of sexual desire, I don't think you would apply such logic to asexual men, no matter their psychology they are still men (even after a sex change the individual is still genetically male).

[Philip S]

There is no reason why there has to be a single solution to this issue. In science fiction, there are always many different possible paths. The purpose of this thread is to collect together as many different plausible <snip>

Stop right there! There are no plausible paths using 40K as is (Thanks for the quote Forgeman) This is a pure fan fiction and therefore the 'plausibility' is down to what people who want female space marines want. Those who do not want it: will not accept it. What we are discussing is an 'alternate' 40K. So to design this alternative we need a clear picture because anything can happen as it's not tied to the what GW has written.

 

If we can't discuss this how are we going to design?

 

This is why the moderators keep warning people about going off topic because as long as you want to simply say 'how about X, Y and Z as possible origin stories' then you are 'on-topic' but if you want to discuss how to create a single, coherent female marine archetpye, that inevitably requires discussion of more than just females marines [whatever they are] and so then you are 'off-topic'. (I might also add that my enquiring as to the motives behind wanting female space marines was not gratefully received).

Oh. While collect up 'loop holes' is fun, they assume a certain concept in doing so as to what the female marines are hence what loop holes to look for. Otherwise any vague bit of background will do. How about the Eldar did it (they messed about with the Tau apparently?), or chaos did it (does it really matter how?), renegade Ad-Mec, Renegade high-tech human world with stolen marine parts, renegade [you name it and put it here], the Tau did it, the Emperor's secret project, some other nutters secret project, and extreme faction of the Sisters of Battle 'super-soldier' program for MAX extreme anti marine hunting..

 

40K is very open by design to allow authors a lot of leeway, but the design studio enforces the 'spirit' of 40K. Female Space Marines are going against that 'spirit' and using the loop holes to shoe horn them in is like 'shooting fish in a barrel' - it's too easy. It'd so open, and so many possibilities, that it's virtually pointless to list them.

 

Mods/ thread starter: however before I loose the mods, reading this topic it seems to me that certain concepts are already in place. The posters may not mean to include them, but other thoughts are really in isolation and the ideas we come up with are based on the premise we came up with. Not discussing the premise seems odd. How about you share a bit so we know what to look for, and concentrate on your premise rather than there be none and we tending to do what humans do when faced with a lack of information about unknowable things: fill in the blanks?

 

To answer your question though, I offer the following Wiki quote, if you will permit me:

In humans and most animals, sex is determined genetically

Even after a boy is turned into a space marine he is still genetically male.

Hence my musings on genetic manipulation. If the young recruit is altered, their gene changed they may look male, and society may accept them as male, yet they may not be 'genetically male'. Same with the female recruits who becomes are marine: they are obviously not male, yet they may not be 'genetically female' either!

 

Mods: This would fit with any 'high-tech' loop hole you care to make up. i.e. an advanced renegade human world where females are 'conflict resolution officers' usually armed with non-lethal stun guns and webbers, and who think males are 'metal dysfunctional' and warehouse most of them in max security cells with choice speciments wheeled out to male brothels. The CFOs are enhanced with stolen marine parts and data after an encounter with the Imperium in order to deal with the Imperium :wub:

 

As I say, without a concept anything goes and can be dropped into 40K without so much as a ripple.

 

If you want Female Space Marines you can have them. The background is open. It will not be official, but it is compatible with background with consensus between like minded fans. The only question is: are they going to be any good? That's the real question, and that's all down to concept.

 

So what's the concept? (or is it secret? ;) )

 

Philip

[Doctor Thunder]

So what's the concept?

We don't have a concept. What we're doing is making a resource for players to use. Those players will already have a concept in mind, and will then pick the elements best suited to their concept. So, we need to come up with many varied ideas to suit the spectrum of what players might be looking to create.

The background is open. It will not be official, but it is compatible with background with consensus between like minded fans.

Well, no DIY army a player makes is official, no matter what they do, so I don't think that is going to be a problem.

[flintlocklaser]

There is no reason why there has to be a single solution to this issue. In science fiction, there are always many different possible paths. The purpose of this thread is to collect together as many different plausible <snip>

Stop right there! There are no plausible paths using 40K as is (Thanks for the quote Forgeman) This is a pure fan fiction and therefore the 'plausibility' is down to what people who want female space marines want. Those who do not want it: will not accept it. What we are discussing is an 'alternate' 40K. So to design this alternative we need a clear picture because anything can happen as it's not tied to the what GW has written.

 

If we can't discuss this how are we going to design?

 

Stop right there, indeed. Once again, this is not a design document for a single female marine chapter. This thread was set up to be a brainstorm and clearinghouse for several DIY 'seeds' if you will; various ways in which a DIYer could approach the concept of a female Space Marine equivalent army, either by using some of these ideas directly or by using it as a source of inspiration. One of the Liber mods has already begun mining this thread for a more straightforward Librarium-style article, which is in progress somewhere in this forum. So trying to limit discussion to a 'clear picture' as you put it is not the point of this thread. If you want to do your concept of a DIY female SM army in a seperate thread, go right ahead, people will be glad to comment/help. But trying to nail this thread down to one idea is counter to the entire point of the thread.

 

And just to clarify, I'm one of those people who tends to think female SM armies aren't really necessary, and are frequently not well thought out. Having said that, there are better and worse ways to approach them as a concept. I appreciated the idea of this thread as an attempt to help people flesh out better backstories if they are in fact determined on making a female SM army, and that's why I contributed to it. Narrowing this down to just a single DIY army concept makes this thread useless.