Female Marines Article Discussion

[Philip S]

Double indeed sir!

 

As I say, I was not arguing for one specific female space marine chapter but the concept, which seem to be what you are also arguing for in a round about way - I guess I'm confused as to your aims as 'concept' and 'origins' go hand in hand.

 

As the options granted by an open background is limitless, and any fans with even a smattering of background knowledge would have thought of many ways to shoe horn in female space marines without trouble, you seem to be suggesting a repository of ideas for for novices? A collection of of the bigger loop holes to allow the uninitiated to pass of female space marines under the noses of long time fans? A proactive self defence?

 

Sounds like an idea!

 

Do not take this as an attack; once upon a time, in the far distance past, I painted a picture of female Ultramarines. This was an acrylic picture and part of my pitch portfolio - unseen by any fan and only the hight echelons of the GW team have seen it (and they recoiled in horror! OK that's overstating it, more a "oooh... that nice, shame there are no female space marine!" but you get the idea of my disappointment ;) )

 

I'm on your side: I like creativity, but this concept framework needs a bit of tweaking in the cold light of day, else it's confusing as hell!

 

Sorry if I'm being difficult, but I see 40K as so open that your could drive a ton of trucks through it and not affect it in any way, and the idea of making a list of loop holes floated past me with carefree abandon...

 

Apologies, and I'll try and get on board this slippery bus :)

 

*poke*

 

Philip

[flintlocklaser]

No worries Philip, I get where you're coming from. I agree with you that there's a ton of 'wiggle room' in 40k fluff, especially if you're willing to step outside of the established fluff anyway (as in female marines!). And as you said, this is sort of a collection of loopholes, for lack of a better term. So it's a bit of a weird, open-ended task, but hopefully it will wind up being a useful resource. I think Ferrata updated his 'official' article that was drawing from this discussion thread today, but absolutely post any ideas you come up with here!

[-Brother Sargent Tiberius-]

Maybe since females do have small levels of testosterone in them (I think, just like males have small levels of estrogen right?), you could say the same results could be achieved with female Marines, with their strength, size, and speed being proportional to Marine males as normal females vs. normal males? Or should I even nit-pick this hard with our science-fiction (heavy on the fiction:o)) hobby?

Good question. In my mind, a Female Marine would have less physical strength then her male counterpart, and would also be shorter. She would also be quicker, have a higher pain threshold, longer lifespan, and superior ability to track multiple threats simultaneously. None of these differences would be great enough to require stat changes, but the presence of a trade-off in abilities makes it feel more in character with the fluff.

 

I'll probably add a not about this in the article.

you still wouldnt have longer lifespans than Blood Angels! hahahaha!

[Melissia]

What if they're descended from Blood Angels, with the change to female being part of the attempt to cure teh black rage?

[Silber]

What if they're descended from Blood Angels, with the change to female being part of the attempt to cure teh black rage?

That's a nice idea. The sarcophagus-thingie they use could serve as excuse for them to look a little female, too.

 

(That one's still an issue to me. It's not that I'd have a problem with Space Marines created from females looking like any other Space Marine. I think it's cool, kinda anti-thesis to the archetypical hollywood sort of approach. But don't you think it'd look a little lazy? "Yeah, sure, my Marines are females. But as they're so genetically uber-improved anyway I just used the normal models.")

[Project XXVIII]

Has anyone considered the option of female chimeras? A rare disorder or whatnot where a splitting zygote instead of completely seperating, goes back into itself and results in a human with two sets of DNA.

 

Could you then run with the idea that female could be from a fraternal twin zygote, and while the male DNA would sync properly, the female DNA gives the aspirant in question the "female naughty bitz"?!

 

Damn it Jim, I'm not a doctor, I'm a machinist!

[Doctor Thunder]

Has anyone considered the option of female chimeras? A rare disorder or whatnot where a splitting zygote instead of completely seperating, goes back into itself and results in a human with two sets of DNA.

That is a dang-good idea. Ferratta, apply it. :no:

[Octavulg]

Er...not to be picky, but that'd be a really odd mutation to have throughout a whole planetary population. According to Wikipedia, there've been 40 reported cases. Coming up with the appropriate number of recruits for a full chapter might well be difficult (though you could certainly have a couple of female marines, I'd imagine).

 

And wouldn't there be a shortage of necessary male hormones even with chimerism?

 

I mean, it's definitely a neat idea, but those are at least two points that should be dealt with by any other who tries it.

[Doctor Thunder]

Er...not to be picky, but that'd be a really odd mutation to have throughout a whole planetary population.

Why does it have to be a planet-wide mutation?

 

Like you said, this would be a good idea for someone who just wants a couple of females in their army and doesn't want an origination story that involves changing the geneseed.

[Octavulg]

It doesn't. But if you just mention female chimeras without pointing out how rare they are, people are going to assume that they can just have a chapterful.

 

Also, it needs to be common enough that the marines try to draft females in the first place. That actually might be the oddest one - why would they start recruiting females one day? Except for the "brave woman pretends to be man, shows mysognists, marines try anyway and get improbably lucky" idea, I got nothing...

[Doctor Thunder]

Also, it needs to be common enough that the marines try to draft females in the first place. That actually might be the oddest one - why would they start recruiting females one day? Except for the "brave woman pretends to be man, shows mysognists, marines try anyway and get improbably lucky" idea, I got nothing...

You could go the Mulan route, but in this case I would recommend the Excalibur Route.

 

Let's say that a chapter finds it's recruits through special soothsayers who enter a trance-like state and are guided to the households whose sons will be taken by the chapter, only on the appointed day the High-Shaman is lead to a house with only one daughter. Guided by The Saints, he asks the young girl to place her hand in the pain glaive, which she does obediently, unaware that the device will kill her if she is rejected.

After a moment of heavy silence, the Glaive snaps open. A perfect genetic match. The High-Shaman praises the Saints for granting them this miracle this day, and leads her away to a very uncertain future.

[Silber]

I like the chimera-idea. What about CAIS though?

 

Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is a (genetic) anomality that gives a XY karyotype person the "perfect" XX pheanotype. These people are immune to testosterone and the likes, and so develop a female look: Breasts, the female "hourglass" shape with waist and hips, little to no body and pubic hair (usually even less than "real" females), even superficially female genitalia. If such a person was to be changed into a Space Marine she would certainly gain mass and muscles, but keep an overall female look. Of course she wouldn't grow as strong as a standard Marine, but all the other growth hormones certainly involved would change her. Still the androgen immunity prevents her from loosing her female shape and voice and such.

 

Thereby it would solve my main concern, too. Introduce it via "Excalibur Route" (thanks Doctor Thunder), and there you go: a female looking Space Marine.

[Doctor Thunder]

I like the chimera-idea. What about CAIS though?

 

Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is a (genetic) anomality that gives a XY karyotype person the "perfect" XX pheanotype. These people are immune to testosterone and the likes, and so develop a female look: Breasts, the female "hourglass" shape with waist and hips, little to no body and pubic hair (usually even less than "real" females), even superficially female genitalia. If such a person was to be changed into a Space Marine she would certainly gain mass and muscles, but keep an overall female look. Of course she wouldn't grow as strong as a standard Marine, but all the other growth hormones certainly involved would change her. Still the androgen immunity prevents her from loosing her female shape and voice and such.

 

Thereby it would solve my main concern, too. Introduce it via "Excalibur Route" (thanks Doctor Thunder), and there you go: a female looking Space Marine.

 

Sounds like a very good origination story to me. :D

 

Just add in a lot of resistance by the rest of the chapter, especially if she is ever promoted, and a suitably harsh imperial response, and it'll fit into 40K perfectly.

[Project XXVIII]

Er...not to be picky, but that'd be a really odd mutation to have throughout a whole planetary population. According to Wikipedia, there've been 40 reported cases. Coming up with the appropriate number of recruits for a full chapter might well be difficult (though you could certainly have a couple of female marines, I'd imagine).

I came up with the idea when I was thinking of how to justify converting my Chapter's Master into a female model,.. to represent my wife. Indeed, I don't plan on having an entire chapter of females,.. just a few here or there,..

 

And wouldn't there be a shortage of necessary male hormones even with chimerism?

Hey man, I'm a machinist,.. not a geneticist,.. I can tell you the RPM requirements for milling cold rolled steel with a 1" 4 fluted end mill,.. but I know squat about how this chimera thing actually works out. :lol:

 

Is it 50/50,.. or similar,.. can it go so far as 90/10 in terms of dna percentage variation in a person,.. I'm not sure,.. but we're talkin' about a world with rabid psykers, 7 foot tall genetically modified humans that can live in a vacuum, spit acid and eat rocks if need be, and planets made of wrought brass that is so hot that the only way to get relief is from your bleeding feet cooling the ground on which you stand.

 

I mean odder things have happened right?! :lol:

 

Why does it have to be a planet-wide mutation?

 

Like you said, this would be a good idea for someone who just wants a couple of females in their army and doesn't want an origination story that involves changing the geneseed.

Also, it needs to be common enough that the marines try to draft females in the first place. That actually might be the oddest one - why would they start recruiting females one day? Except for the "brave woman pretends to be man, shows mysognists, marines try anyway and get improbably lucky" idea, I got nothing...

I was going to go with the angle that my chapter was nearly wiped out, they were looking for recruits,.. they came to a world where a female mistakenly was tested for gene-seed match,.. and it turned out positive,.. not wanting to turn away what could become a successful aspirant, she was bid welcome,..

 

Just add in a lot of resistance by the rest of the chapter, especially if she is ever promoted, and a suitably harsh imperial response, and it'll fit into 40K perfectly.

Ok,.. I don't understand the resistance from the rest of the chapter,.. sure they're all male,.. but if chicky-poo can take her knocks and lay out the smack as well as Brother Ismadael from 4th. Company,.. who really gives a care if she's female? Is there some kind of Imperial decree that bans female marines,.. why would there be a harsh response from the Imperial Bureaucracy?

[Octavulg]

IIRC, most chapters test for toughness first, then test genetics. Of course, it'd make a lot of sense to do it the other way. Just something you should probably mention if you go the chimerism route.

[Doctor Thunder]

Ok,.. I don't understand the resistance from the rest of the chapter,.. sure they're all male,.. but if chicky-poo can take her knocks and lay out the smack as well as Brother Ismadael from 4th. Company,.. who really gives a care if she's female? Is there some kind of Imperial decree that bans female marines,.. why would there be a harsh response from the Imperial Bureaucracy?

You don't have to include that if you don't feel it fits your chapter, of course. You are the ultimate authority on your chapter's attitudes and personality. :o

 

I only suggested it because suspicion and paranoia are the usual Imperial response to any situation.

[Project XXVIII]

Er...not to be picky, but that'd be a really odd mutation to have throughout a whole planetary population. According to Wikipedia, there've been 40 reported cases. Coming up with the appropriate number of recruits for a full chapter might well be difficult (though you could certainly have a couple of female marines, I'd imagine).

I talked about this with a friend of mine who is a doctor,.. and we came to a conclusion,.. sure there are 40 reported and confirmed cases,.. but there is no reason to test for this disorder for medical needs. In fact the percentage of countries that could actually test for it is slim,.. and the vast majority of the population lives in countries that can't. The reported cases only arise when medical complications lead to the conclusion of chimeraism. I myself could be a chimera and the need to know or ever have to prove it would never come to pass. I'm not arguing that it isn't a rare disorder,.. but it's not like we check for it regularly,.. and much like the doctor said,.. you could check for it and still not get it,.. it is literally random in it's occurance and what parts of the body that it affects.

[Ferrata]

Guys, I think this can end now. It is rather a moot point about the precise facts of a real disease. Why? Because for one, this is not the kind of detail to go into the article, instead falling under the umbrella section on ‘Genetic Alteration’, and if a person wishes to follow this route they can research it themselves. Secondly, when discussing 40k we fall into the realm of jelly science, so even if this disease was not you really you can pretend it was and even if it is rare, you can say it has became the germ line norm.