More from Jervis Johnson...

[Melissia]

Depends on how you define "soon", as I see it happening within the next two or three years., to revitalize the GK and AS armies.

[- 7eAL -]

Well if anyone is aware of the immense cost that is required to create a single sprue for plastics then im sure you'll agree that its unlikely DH/WH will be getting plastics any time soon.

It is the immense cost of creating a plastic injection mold for a single plastic sprue, coupled with the low sales and return rate of Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters armies, rather.

[Kettu]

I know, it's such a problem, how will they ever recoup from the utter loss of producing plastic core troop choices? Why it's even incomprehensible for them to ever do any plastics again for anyone but Space Marines, I hear they still have metal special characters.

 

And to think we were demanding that they treat the Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights with any sort of equal respect or empathy, I mean, they're only girls and psychic mutants.

For shame everyone, demanding such things from Games Workshop, for shame.

[boreas]

I can very well see GW "broadning" the market by keeping the allies rules. After all, if every SM and IG player out there can take a unit or two of GKs or SoBs, they could very well get good sales...

 

Phil

[Tauren]

You realize the two main sticking points as to why daemonhunters and witch hunters don't sell are because...

 

A: they are out of date?

B: they are all metal armies?

[boreas]

Well one should add that their fluff doesn't have the same "general appeal" as other armies. Space Marines are the poster boys, Orks are liked by the "funny-exploady" crowds, Eldars appeal to the fantasy/elves crowd, IG to thread-heads, etc...

 

SoB are nuns with guns backed by a sado-masochistic freak show. GK are more "knight-like" SM (positive point) with a super-specialized task (not as good) and fixed fluff (compared to SM army that can come from any world, have very different moral views, etc). Those have a smaller target audience, but tend, I find, to get a more fanatical one...

 

Phil

[benmothershaw]

Well one should add that their fluff doesn't have the same "general appeal" as other armies. Space Marines are the poster boys, Orks are liked by the "funny-exploady" crowds, Eldars appeal to the fantasy/elves crowd, IG to thread-heads, etc...

 

SoB are nuns with guns backed by a sado-masochistic freak show. GK are more "knight-like" SM (positive point) with a super-specialized task (not as good) and fixed fluff (compared to SM army that can come from any world, have very different moral views, etc). Those have a smaller target audience, but tend, I find, to get a more fanatical one...

 

Phil

what do you mean by fanatical audience? or is it like devoted?

Sometimes I when I think of GK's they remind me slightly of Jedi :S Because they are like have the force and a really cool NFW.

Though GK's have little personality due to their duty, they feel more hard-core with a slight show off thing going on.

[Wolf's Bane]

Well if anyone is aware of the immense cost that is required to create a single sprue for plastics then im sure you'll agree that its unlikely DH/WH will be getting plastics any time soon.

 

Tha thing is ... we are not asking for a plastic sprue (although that will be a magnificiente idea. Right now, I have 20 GK terminator but with a new plastic sprue I would buy a minimun of ten more), we are asking about a WD revision of our codex, just as the Blood Angel got.

 

With that, we would wait another 3 years perfectly for a big and new codex!! :)

[boreas]

what do you mean by fanatical audience? or is it like devoted?

 

Well, maybe not "I'll blow myself up" fanatical, but, on average, more devoted than most WH40k player!

 

Phil

[Melissia]

Don't put words in my mouth, Wolf's Bane. I am asking for plastic models. New plastic models with faces that don't look manly, and perhaps less of a breast-cone look :P I'd buy a brand friggin' new army if they released plastic models, because they're so much easier to paint and convert in comparison.

[Coppella]

I'd have to admit, I would most likely redo my whole army with plastics. If or when it happens.

[jester_prince]

I remember when they switched eldar to plastics, all my friends were like OH GOD NO! they dont look the same, which is true but they warmed to them and now think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Sisters would benafit from being plastics, but their appeal really isnt as broad (as previously stated) so i think perhaps there would be the initial thrill with lots of gamers buying them and then it would slow to a drip, kids i know who used to play at the club/store i ran bashed WH constantly, its not that its not a cool army, and even if you could attract the new players its not an army (average) kids would collect, only you hard core few from the (probably) older generation.

 

Lets face it majority of people start young, older genrations just starting are more likley to go for something like flames of war these days.

 

GW is one of these hobbys i think that thrives off kids starting as a phase kids go through, keeping them captivated is harder and WH/DH is too complex and specilized for the average kid who just wants to blow everything up with he biggest guns, space marines, tau and orks fill that slot, WH is harder to play, if a kid loses too many battles hes gonna lose interest.

 

You will probably see a direct comparison between the kids that won or lost battles compared to who sticks with the hobby and who quits.

 

DH/WH dont just relly on standing still and shooting everything.

 

Plastics for WH and DH wont prove to be continually profitable in the long haul, so the likelihood of plastics any time soon is probably unlikely.

 

Still one can dream *daydreams*

 

Even with plastics, the armys would enjoy an initial enthusiasm from a kid whos just started a hobby, wanting the best looking pictures on the boxes (dont deny its how most of us start we see some cool images and thats how you choose your army), hes just gonna paint them badly and then lose matches badly because hes just tried standing and shooting, then his enthusiasm will fade and die for the hobby and GW will lose out because they didnt pour their money into the right army, spacemarines, orks, tau all support the more kid friendly mindset.

 

Im not saying theres not a market for DH/WH plastics its just not large enough and consistant enough, most people probably come into these armys after finishing their main armys and wanting something new (and the sweetest looking minies on the table), but thats still not enough to support the costs.

 

I dunno maybe im wrong, but this is from my own personal experience helping a friend run his store on saturdays for him and the club.

[Melissia]

Orks also don't just stand and shoot (duh?). Neither do Marines. Neither do Tau. Hell, even Imperial Guard benefit from not just standing around and shooting. I think you're vastly overestimating the immaturity of the average new player.

[jester_prince]

I ran a club and a shop on saturdays, the kids only played marines, orks and tau, their tactics were often all out head on charge or stand back and shoot, there WERE good tactical thinkers but the majority of younger players had little in the way of tactics, they developed them but at first that's the majority of their tactics. I am genralising ofcourse theres the odd few that are always an exception.

 

And ive seen many armys played "wrong" just like orks being used as shooty armies and tau as assault, just because they arnt intended that way dosnt mean new and inexperianced players dont use them that way.

[boreas]

Seriously, have you read this topic:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=152206

 

???

 

And numerous others! WH and DH have a steeper learning curve than many armies (SM and Orks for starters...). WHs also have a more mature theme. Even if they average new player is mature for his age (which might very well be the case), he's probably more into Gears of Wars or Mangas than Religion and Sado-masochism :(

 

I think that even a brand new Inquisition Codex and new minies won't make WH/DH as popular as many armies, with only DE being a tad worse (sado-masochistic evil pirate elves from space!?)

 

Phil

[Melissia]

I ran a club and a shop on saturdays, the kids only played marines, orks and tau, their tactics were often all out head on charge or stand back and shoot, there WERE good tactical thinkers but the majority of younger players had little in the way of tactics, they developed them but at first that's the majority of their tactics. I am genralising ofcourse theres the odd few that are always an exception.

 

And ive seen many armys played "wrong" just like orks being used as shooty armies and tau as assault, just because they arnt intended that way dosnt mean new and inexperianced players dont use them that way.

In that case, you can't prevent them from losing, so why should it matter which army they lose with?

 

I don't expect the Sisters to become as popular as the Marines. I just know that if they're updated and new models are released, and put onto the shelves to be made a visible presence, they will be purchased and more people will buy them, along with those that already own the army buying new plastic models.

 

If you're worried about the feel of the Sisters fluff-wise, making them into a more effective military force by giving them victories and brilliant leaders is something I'm all for anyway-- they currently seem to want to use the Sisters as a scratching post of the universe.

[jester_prince]

Im more affraid they will just turn them into female spacemarines if they try to make them something a introductory player would buy.

 

Its not about if people will buy them its about if they can KEEP people buying them, the WH are a steep learning curve (like boreas said) which would put alot of people off.

 

In that case, you can't prevent them from losing, so why should it matter which army they lose with?

Spacemarines and orks tend to be fairly forgiving in this respect, tau deffinetly arnt, but kids are kids. Id personaly love to see sisters and GK turned into plastics, and I think alot of people at GW would, but they ARE a buisness first and a developer second....otherwise theres no game to develop.

 

To be fair to them they are doing what makes sense, boosting space marines and orks (and other more populer armies of course) every 5+ years keeps the entry level players happy and entertained till they become experienced and hooked, while all other armies will get an update when desperate, which is now for DH and WH (well this run of updates). While we might not like the fact our models are getting a little outdated and are rules are broken, everyone's forgetting the main rule, find a friendly way to agree on something that dosnt make sense, if you play tourneys its a little more difficult but you accepted that when you took that army to the tournament. If you are playing just to win then take an army you know isnt broken. Keep your WH/DH for friendly games.

 

GW isnt exactly doing financially great last i heard so they need to boost their sales before anything secondary comes into play, I dont hate them for that and leaving codex witch hunters and demon hunters till last kinda makes sense even if we dont like it.

[Melissia]

Yes, they need to boost their sales.

 

... so they should do that. This is one way to do that. There's only so many Space Marines they can sell-- so they should focus on some of the other armies, too. Really, GW's actions don't make sense to me. They're putting all their eggs in the Marine basket, but it's not really helping very much is it?

[jester_prince]

No they have only just started their update cycle or have you forgotten that they always start with marines, then work their way through the armys one by one, Orks will most likley be next, its not all their eggs in one basket its just going to take them a while to lay all their eggs across all the baskets. They dont have an infinite amount of recources, they cant employ people to design all the models for 10 armies and write the codexes for 10 armies all at once. Things take time. Im sure all the armies in the cycle will get substantial updates and models just like the new marines, it happens every 5+ years for most armies so i dont know why people are complaining that marines got an update and no one else has yet, the cycles only just begun.

 

++EDIT++

 

Its not asif the marine codex would be any good if you were given only half the models on release, just so they cvould release some eldar models or something that have no use because the eldar codex sint out yet. If your going to release an army you release it in one big bulk so the rules are all in place and in line with the models.

[Melissia]

And therein lies their problem. They go to Orks, who have already gotten a codex VERY recently (a codex that most Ork players are satisfied with, at that!)-- why should they do that, when it would be more profitable to push another army up into the forefront for a bit?

 

Besides that, they plan on doing exactly what I state that they should with the new Dark Eldar, for example (a set of brand new plastic minis, new codex)-- and the Imperial Guard, and Space Wovles, based on the current schedule rumours. And then after that, before they do anything that has already been updated recently, they should push up those that have not been updated recently. The Dark Eldar have not had a new codex for ten years, and the Sisters and Grey Knights aren't in that much better of a position.

 

Just as they plan on revitalizing the Dark Eldar with new plastic minis, the Sisters and Grey Knights could very well use their own new minis as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for it immediently, RIGHT F'IN NOW, but within four years is a reasonable time considering that by then the Sisters and Grey Knights will have waited a decade before their new codex, which is a damned long time to wait and as far as gamers go, an eternity even.

[boreas]

And putting your egg in too many baskets is also a problem. Sales are one thing, but if you boost your sales by x% but your costs by y%, you're in big trouble if y is bigger than x. So investing in lots of plastics that might not pay off is not something they'll want to do.

 

I think we might see a limited amount of plastic for SoB/DH. Definitely don't expect Celestians, Dominions, Seraphims and regular SoB. Maybe more a box with basic sisters and some upgrade sprues (like they did for BT and DA). Maybe an Exorcist that's more Whirlwind-like. We already have the Immolator. GKs and GKT are a difinite possibility. Anything beyond that would be gravy.

 

Phil

[Melissia]

I don't mind having to convert Celestians and other unit types in order to make them look different than normal Battle Sisters, or paint them with a bit more gold than normal and so on. Hell, I'd be perfectly fine with it with plastics, which are easier to convert in the first place.

[jester_prince]

Still, even if they just gave GK and sisters metal models with no arms on and a dozen variants of arms in different poses would make most players happy so they could mix and match, gives us near infinite posibilites for converting aswell. Terminators arnt so bad for GK I dont think plastics would look as nice they are already damn sexy, and converting them isnt so terribly hard. Plastic storm troopers are inevitably going to come with IG so that sorts out a BIG problem.

[Melissia]

I've seen some beautiful plastics models, so don't think that plastic means that they won't look as good as metal.

[Utsujin]

Metal tend to have more detail, and I have no problem converting some of my PAGK. I don't convert most of them, because I think they look fine and dynamic the way the 4 different poses are..