More from Jervis Johnson...

[mlund]

I can imagine they may pull back on the crazy Inquisitor add-ons: 6 types of henchmen + subtypes, Death Cult Assassins, Daemonhosts - the stuff better suited for the Inquisitor RPG line and novels than 40K.

 

They'd better not phase out the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Inquisitor character models themselves, though. If Ordo Malleus becomes "All Grey Knights - all the time" and Ordo Hereticus becomes exclusively the "Adeptus Sororitas Show" I'm done with both factions. Stormtroopers in Rhinos and Inquisitors are the focal point of my enjoyment of the Inquisition factions.

 

- Marty Lund

[Utsujin]

I think if they gave celestians 2 attacks, and BP and CCW, they would seriously be awesome. Kind of like, girl veteran marines, but better.

[Eltnot]

I think if they gave celestians 2 attacks, and BP and CCW, they would seriously be awesome. Kind of like, girl veteran marines, but better.

... and completely unfluffy all at the same time.

 

Celestians are not meant to be close combat monsters. They're just slightly more elite battle sisters that can vaguely hold their own in HtH. And, they're actually priced appropriately. So why would you want to change them... Oh I see, you want to have boobs on your Space Marines...

[Utsujin]

Well, sisters of battle in general shoudl at least get a bolt pistol standard, incase they want to charge in. That would make celestians a tad more better.. You're right about overpowering them to be cc monsters.. we're not easy boy marines after all.

[Melissia]

I think if they gave celestians 2 attacks, and BP and CCW, they would seriously be awesome. Kind of like, girl veteran marines, but better.

... and completely unfluffy all at the same time.

 

Celestians are not meant to be close combat monsters. They're just slightly more elite battle sisters that can vaguely hold their own in HtH. And, they're actually priced appropriately. So why would you want to change them... Oh I see, you want to have boobs on your Space Marines...

What a load of hooie. Celestian s re CC fighters, it's pretty much explicitly stated.. They are overpriced for what they do, which really isn't all that much. Since they can no longer claim objectives, you're better off ignoring Celestiand and just buying more Battle Sisters instead-- the Battle Sisters will do pretty much exactly the same thing as the Celestians, except they cost less and can capture points as well.

 

As they are right now, they probably should be more around ten points each (if not less) just because of the lack of equipment to properly utilize their stats and ability to cap. I'd rather them be buffed rather than their cost reduced. Giving them a BP+CCW would go a long way to making them actualyl useful to the army list. And if the bolter is taken away to give them that, then they should be given another buff or again be reduced in price.

 

 

It's a similar conundrun to the Canoness-- Her stats are shooty-oriented, but her equipment is close combat oriented. And so you rarely see her actually USE that Bs5 in a competative list-- what, are you going to give the canoness a storm bolter or combiweapon instead of a blessed weapon or eviscerator (and yes, she can only have one or the other)? Sure, you might give her a bolt pistol or plasma gun, but that's probably not going to sway the course of the battle in comparison to a truelly shooty weapon such as those avaialble to tau HQs. Hell, that's basicly the same kind of weapon that might be given to normal sister superiors, so it's hardly befitting of a canoness anyway.

 

 

Similarly, the Celestians are shooty oriented in equipment, but CC oriented in stats. They don't even have bolt pistols to fire during an assault-- they can only fire their assault specail weapons, and so their loadout si going to be the same as a normal Battle Sister squad. and if they hang back to use the heavy bolter (very few are going to seriously consider using multimeltas on infantry in the first place, and nevermind on Celestians) then they are overcome by the better priced Retributors instead, who also can have more heavy bolters anyway.

 

 

In fact, I would go so far as to say the only reason one might ever take Celestians might be as retinue for the canoness, but why would you do that? Stick an assaulty HQ unit inside of a shooty elite unit? You'd be better off just having her shadow or be attatched to seraphim instead, where she can properly earn her points back. Maybe you can find a use for Celestians as they are now, but I honestly can't in comparison to what else the Sisters have. If they were troops, they'd actually not be all that bad, as then they could cap. But they're elites. Elite are supposed to be... I dunno...elite. Celestians, although they are supposed to be the best fighters in the order, are outclassed in assaults by seraphim, outclassed in shooting by retibutors and battle sisters (both fo whom cost less per model). And each of these three units has other things ontop of that (hit and run/jump packs, more heavy bolters, more bodies in BSS squads and ability to capture points) ,whereas the Celestians? Nothing. Celestians are definitely in need of a buff.

 

 

And if you think I'm making a big deal about points capture? You're rightt. That's two thirds of games. To give up the ability to directly effect victory in two thirds of games, for such mediocre (which is a kind way to put it in this instance) benefits and yet INCREASE their price? Hardly makes a worthy unit. And even in kill points games, other units do better there, too.

[the jeske]

Stormtroopers in Rhinos and Inquisitors are the focal point of my enjoyment of the Inquisition factions.

and GW will tale you to take the new IG codex special character named X[that allows you to use storm troopers as troops] an use either comissars as counts as INQ or use th IG dex own.

 

 

as the celestians go . give them all free sarisa [well maybe not free make celestial cost 13/14pts] . change sarisa rule that it re-rolls to wound dice in hth . they would still be shoty , but even sm/csm players would have to think about charging a sister squad that can go str5 and/or re roll or to wound .

[Gentlemanloser]

The rumour is that Inquisitors will be included in the new IG codex.

 

Add in retinue options and Assassins, and there's no need for anything not of the Militant orders in the GK/SoB Codexes.

 

Want an Inquisitor with your Grey Knights? Play Apoc and use the GK codex and IG Codex together. With the usual caveat from GW of "If you're not playing Apoc, just do it anyway, with your friends permission of course".

[Eltnot]

What a load of hooie. Celestian s re CC fighters, it's pretty much explicitly stated.. They are overpriced for what they do, which really isn't all that much. Since they can no longer claim objectives, you're better off ignoring Celestiand and just buying more Battle Sisters instead-- the Battle Sisters will do pretty much exactly the same thing as the Celestians, except they cost less and can capture points as well.

I'm not going to quote the rest of your post, we can get the general idea from here.

 

Firstly Celestians are the best HUMAN close combat troops (excluding assassins and characters) in the game when you look at their stats. So they meet their fluff prerequisite.

 

Secondly, you see no point to fielding Celestians....

Celestians are the cheapest way to get a faithful squad with a pair of meltaguns (their small size makes it easier to get invulnerable saves also).

A Celestian Veteran Sister Superior is the most efficient place for an eviscerator short of in the hands of a Canoness (due to hitting on a 3+).

Taken as a retinue, they protect you Palantine or Canoness from being targeted in HtH (allowing you to keep her alive, or kill her off more easily for faith points as you choose).

They are one of the best units to allow you to field an Immolator without using up a heavy support slot (it's generally better to run larger squads of Dominions for easier divine guidance rolls with multiple flamers and better to have more bodies to protect the heavy bolters in a Retributer Squad).

They are also one of the best places for a priest (if you intend to take one for your own reasons).

 

Back to them being a useful CC unit in game...

They're like kroot, they won't beat the pants off a dedicated assault unit (like a space marine assault squad). They're not supposed to.

Also like kroot and Tau, sisters are a shooting based army, they're not supposed to kick everyone's ass in CC, just accept that.

Lastly, Celestians will still beat most regular infantry in HtH (Imperial Guard, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Spine Gaunts, etc).

 

Regardless, none of this has anything overtly to do with what Jervis Johnson said anymore.

 

P.S. I rather like that idea "the jeske". Sarissas just seemed such a waste most of the time.

[boreas]

The rumour is that Inquisitors will be included in the new IG codex.

 

Add in retinue options and Assassins, and there's no need for anything not of the Militant orders in the GK/SoB Codexes.

 

Want an Inquisitor with your Grey Knights? Play Apoc and use the GK codex and IG Codex together. With the usual caveat from GW of "If you're not playing Apoc, just do it anyway, with your friends permission of course".

 

Oh my Emperor. Getting the freak show out of the WH codex would just kill it for me. What got me into WH40k are the penitent engines and Arco-flagellant. That and cruel/sadistic inquisitors backed by bolter-toting nuns...

 

Inquisitor might be included in the IG codex, but I can't see the Inquisitorial forces with no Inquisitors!?!?!

 

Phil

[number6]

+++++ Incoming transmission from your friendly neighborhood moderator +++++

 

This topic sprang into existence during my vacation and has ballooned significantly. From what I've been able to catch of it since my return, it's remained pretty level, though it has strayed WAY off-topic into Yet Another Inquisition Codex Wishlist.

 

FYI, I'm pretty indulgent on OT discussions provided they remain clean and unique. The first criterion has been met, but the 2nd most definitely has not been. I nearly closed this topic earlier this week as a aresult, but now that we're straying into repeat discussions of what has been covered -- and should continue to be covered -- in - 7eAL -s INQUISITION PROJECT, I think this topic has outlived its usefulness.

 

For those of you interested in continuing to hash out what you think Inquisition armies need to "keep them relevant", please direct your attention to - 7eAL -s project.