Essayons Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Hey all. Telion's entry says that his Stalker Pattern Boltgun "may" be fired with the following profile...and then it gives the 36" ranged, special profile. Now it seems to me that it would also be able to be fired as a normal boltgun. The "may" indicates that this is an elective profile that may be chosen by the player. What do you think? Essayons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I really don't know, but my gods it would be useful to have the option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somar Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 IMHO it means that you may shoot it with the following profile or you may elect not to shoot it. (to use the bolt pistol instead or use his VOE special rule) if you were allowed to shoot it with a different profile it should mention that you may fire it like a standard boltgun or give a new profile, since that is not the case, you cannot. just checked my dex and it says ....CAN be fired with the following profile:... to assume that it can be fired with a normal boltgun profile seems very far fetched and like wishful thinking. for all it is worth, i do think it was worth a question on this forum though, so keep searching :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Seems just a tad exploity, I say no. The real question is, why wouldn't you want to use a 36" range 2 shot rending bolter that you can allocate to Sergeants, special/heavy weapons and the like? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essayons Posted November 11, 2008 Author Share Posted November 11, 2008 just checked my dex and it says ....CAN be fired with the following profile:...to assume that it can be fired with a normal boltgun profile seems very far fetched and like wishful thinking. Well, before anyone accuses me of being a "rules lawyer," I just have to let you all know that I actually AM a lawyer...yep, litigation is my field friends and neighbors, so I'm predisposed to this type of analysis. In any event, I think it's ambiguous. The statement "Sgt. Telion's carries a Stalker Pattern Boltgun that is fired with the following profile" would be clear. The substitution of "can be" for "is" could be significant. Multi-million dollar business transactions rise and fall on the difference between "may" and "shall." I think it could be argued effectively either way. Seems just a tad exploity, I say no. The real question is, why wouldn't you want to use a 36" range 2 shot rending bolter that you can allocate to Sergeants, special/heavy weapons and the like? This gets my standard answer...tis a big universe folks. Who knows what may come up. Great discussion though...thanks. Essayons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Why? Heavy 2 is not as good as Rapid Fire when you move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Why? Heavy 2 is not as good as Rapid Fire when you move. Bingo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gainesdp Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 As I read the rules, it presents a new type of weapon, 'Stalker Patterned Boltgun'. It then states what the 'Stalker Patterned Boltgun' is (i.e., boltgun with targetter + silenced shells). Finally, it states it can be fired with the following profile (refer to codex for profile). I disagree that the usage of 'can' presents an alternative way of firing the weapon (i.e., 'can' is used instead of 'is' due to future tense, not to present an alternative). Regardless, unless you can find an alternative profile for a 'Stalker Patterned Boltgun', I don't see another way to fire a weapon. In other words, if you are going to interpret the rules at that fine degree, then you should do so evenly and not pick and choose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somar Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 this reminds me of something... in the good ol days it was still possible to assault out of rhinos. however, in the rulebook it said: after disembarking from a transport vehicle that moved, the unit disembarking may not move anymore. it was implied that it could not move in that same movement phase, from then on it could act like any other unit, including assaulting in that same turn. the guy i played against though insisted that the unit could not move for the rest of the game, since all attempts to move at a later point in time are AFTER they disembarked. point is, the rules are not written by lawyers and we have to try to figure out what the author is trying to tell us. if he were to mean that the gun could be fired as a standard bolt gun, would he consider the way it is written adequate to bring this across or would he make the effort to state: the gun can also be fired like a normal bolt gun? somebody trying to put a rule onto paper is bias in his attempt to formulate it, since he already knows the effect he is trying to imply. so when he looks at his written word it does not occur to him that strictly speaking it might mean something totally different. here is an extrapolation of the interpretation you are trying to formulate. the salamander special character is armed with a gauntlet that CAN be fired as a heavy flamer. can i fire it as a melta gun? it is kinda the same, isn't it? :) if he fires the gauntlet mounted weapon as a heavy flamer, does it benefit from his special rule that makes flamers fire as if they were twin linked? in the rules it says that heavy flamers can be fired thus, but it is not a heavy flamer, only a weapon that has the same profile. :o now, some people may find such discussions entertaining, but myself, i rather play the game instead of arguing about such points. if your victory depends on such things, then you better make sure you do not force such arguments upon someone that does not enjoy them the way you do, lest in the best case the mood of the game will darken and become more of a chore then enjoyment and in the worst case will end up with a rule book and maybe a figure case in a location that is very seldom blessed by the warming rays of our life giving sun ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toogeloo Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Why? Heavy 2 is not as good as Rapid Fire when you move. Bingo. OOC, do you just post randomly to get your post count up Mel :lol: Jus' kiddin' wit' ya' o' course :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Nail Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Multi-million dollar business transactions rise and fall on the difference between "may" and "shall." Essayons. Indeed but this is a game played for fun between friends ;) :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1767962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I agree that there is definatley room to argue that the stalker is both a regular and special boltgun. the description of the weapon states that it is "a boltgun". but there's also all of the above arguments against such interpretations, so I say go with the old "less advantageous interpretation" and treat the stalker as it states on its profile: heavy 2. Use the bolt pistol if you want to shoot on the move. As the stalker is not listed in the summary page, we miss the very clear opportunity to see an asterisk indicating multiple fire modes. bad GW! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Don't forget, it is a permissive rule-set, so in almost all cases if it doesn't explicitly say that you can do something, you can't do it. In this case, you do not get to use the stalker pattern bolter as a normal bolter - just use the bolt pistol instead. It only gives one shot, but has the same range as a rapid fire bolter and still lets you assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 For what it's worth (and speaking from the perspective of someone who has been on the receiving end of this puppy over the weekend) I'd have to say that if the rule says it 'can' be fired in a certain way does not preclude the option of using it in a normal manner. It's a modified boltgun after all and so it's not outside the possibility of it being used as a boltgun (bearing in mind that it loses rending etc). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamers World Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Ah but, using common logic, the Stalker is a modified boltgun. If it was Stalker shells then you could say that he could just change his rounds but since the gun has been loveingly changed then Telion is nopt just going to ask a nearby techmarine to change it back is he. From a fluff point of view you couldn't and I agree with the logic that someone said about the Salamander guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I would cast my vote with the "No, it's not able to fire like a regular bolter" argument. Compare the Stalker with a combibolter. Combis have two distinct statlines for each of their fire modes. The same applies for a missile launcher. It has a statline for Frag and a statline for Krak modes. The Stalker is provided with just one statline. There is no notation that it can opt to fire as a normal bolter, as is the case for a combi. Therefore, the Stalker cannot use the normal bolter statline. Even Sternguard bolters provide mutliple statlines for each of their ammo types. If it were a case of "swapping ammo" for the Stalker, I'm positive it would have been included in the rules for Telion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zieggenfus Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 As an opposing point of view, when I read the description, it never even occurred to me the that Telion couldn't fire it as a normal boltgun. I believe that the description/rule is fairly clear that the additional profile is just that, additional. Telion may fire the his bolter using either profile. This is neither unprecedented nor extraordinary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essayons Posted November 11, 2008 Author Share Posted November 11, 2008 Thanks for all the input gang. I still thing that there is an ambiguity to be cleared up, but it's not a deal-breaker. Trust me, those that have played 40k with me will know that I have quite a relaxed attitude about the rules. More of an "eh, I don't care as long as we're having fun" sort of deal. I'd play it either way my opponent felt about it. But I do like to know what my gear does. Essayons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 ok, so a few points: 1 - ignore the fluff. This is a sperate weapon from a boltgun same as a storm bolter is seperate from a boltgun. Fluff they are similar, rules they are not. 2 - "can be fired" does mean you have a choice. However it does NOT mean that you can use fluff or part of the name to make up what that choice is. Your choice is the same as firing a meltagun. You can fire it with X profile, or you can not fire it at all. Unless the firing options are stated then your choice of "can" is you CAN fire or you CAN NOT. 3 - Does the rule ever actualy say "can be used as a bolter or with the following profle"? same as point 2 really. Remeber, the rules are permissive. You have permision to do X. that does not mean you can do Y unless it is ststed that you can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 ok, so a few points: 1 - ignore the fluff. This is a sperate weapon from a boltgun same as a storm bolter is seperate from a boltgun. Fluff they are similar, rules they are not. 2 - "can be fired" does mean you have a choice. However it does NOT mean that you can use fluff or part of the name to make up what that choice is. Your choice is the same as firing a meltagun. You can fire it with X profile, or you can not fire it at all. Unless the firing options are stated then your choice of "can" is you CAN fire or you CAN NOT. 3 - Does the rule ever actualy say "can be used as a bolter or with the following profle"? same as point 2 really. Remeber, the rules are permissive. You have permision to do X. that does not mean you can do Y unless it is ststed that you can. Just to add my 2 cents, its really not needed as Praeger summed it up, but here goes.. A 'stalker' pattern bolter is not a standard issue bolter it fires with 36" range has HEAVY 2, rending, pinning etc. It is not a normal bolter, and for the comment above shooting a rapid fire weapon is only useful at 12" or less, i really dont want scouts getting that close unless they have to!!! Just snipe enemy commanders at 36" away and be happy. :D When the rules say he CAN fire with ....... What the author is trying to say is Telion has choices, he can fire his gun using stats x or he can use his voice of experience and not fire his ownm weapon. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1768740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Pretty much as the above two have put it, but a couple of quotes to prove the point... Stalker "It can be fired with the following profile:" Gauntlet of the Forge "This armoured gauntlet can be fired with the following profile:" Obviously the gauntlet has no alternative fire arrangement. (just 'fire' actually :P ) The can does not imply this. Gauntlets of Ultramar say the same thing. Sorry people, but rapid fire is extrapolated wishfull thinking, no matter how useful it could be. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1769109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Another example in support of the no rapid fire crowd: Scout heavy bolter CAN fire Hellfire shells or may be fired normally according to the scouts unit description. there is the specific mention of "or... normally" that is absent in sgt. Telion's stalker pattern boltgun description. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1769455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 The big question is when they say he "carries a boltgun" do they mean that as fluff or rules? It is definately ambigious. but I think the intention is that the first line is fluff and the rules are that it can be fired one way. But because GW likes to mix rules and fluff which one is it? from the description it sounds like it should work as a regular boltgun as well. Or he can stay still and use the targeter for the profile on pg 88. IMO, if you play with a regular group then figure it out ahead of time. If you are playing someone new then either use your pistol or discuss/roll before the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1770276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Well either way, I'm pretty sure an extra 2 bolter dice isn't going to influence the course of a game to that extent. Like I said previously, if my opponent wanted to use it in this manner I'd not be that bothered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1770790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
turelhim vampire Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Straight from the 40k GT 2008 FAQ: Telion's description says that he can fire his bolter with the following profile: heavy 2…... Does this mean he can only fire it with this profile or can he fire it like a normal bolt gun as well? Telion carries a modified boltgun that he may choose to fire either as a normal bolter or with the profile for the Stalker Pattern Bolter as per p88 of Codex Space Marines. Bold is my emphasis, Italics is not. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/151868-the-stalker-pattern-boltgun/#findComment-1775113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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