Dreadnoughts

[Rahveel]

I think there are a few things that are overlooked when it comes to dreads.

 

1) walker spam lists. 3 CC dreads and 3 CC defilers are an excelent recipe for destruction.

2) dreads make for the only 'non rhino' armor option outside of the HS slot. they soak fire better than said rhinos.

 

3) CSM dreads are not weapons platforms like SM dreads. mounting weaponry on them is risky buisness. dont. keep dreads simple. a pair of CC weapons, and a flamer to aid the assault. other weapons options cost points, and cannot be used reliably (worse yet, they can prove a liabuility).

[the jeske]

1) walker spam lists. 3 CC dreads and 3 CC defilers are an excelent recipe for destruction.

 

3) CSM dreads are not weapons platforms like SM dreads. mounting weaponry on them is risky buisness. dont. keep dreads simple. a pair of CC weapons, and a flamer to aid the assault. other weapons options cost points, and cannot be used reliably (worse yet, they can prove a liabuility).

aha and as you say yourself dreads shouldnt be armed with shoting weapons , with 3 there is a big chance that each turn 1 will do nothing . so it is hard to cordinate them , you never know which one is not going to work . second if dread are built for hth [and the csm lists are a close range lists or hth lists in general] there is still a chance they will fire at a unit near by.

second lets look at the pts costs 3 dreads for hth 3 defilers , thats 700 +/- pts. Considering the number of troops that need to be taken for an army this size we are looking at a 2k+ build . And while it is true that in bigger games it stops to be important what unit does what and how it performs , still having 3 units that randomlly do nothing or attack your own troops is bad .

2) dreads make for the only 'non rhino' armor option outside of the HS slot. they soak fire better than said rhinos.

I dont know but a normal pts list [1850] will have 2 dps , 4 rhinos some oblits and some termis kamikaze . all those units can hurt the enemy player , all of them can be controled .

I dont think that dreads are needed as extra targets for enemy units.

[Brother Vader]

The terrain you play on will have the biggest effect on your dreddy. If you're on a featureless table and you give the dread heavy bolters and a missile launcher then fire frenzy will hurt you. If, however there's some LOS blocking terrain you can deploy the dreddy near (on a flank, maybe) you can

screen your army and fire frenzy will make it shoot twice at your opponent's army. This will be easier for smaller elite armies with fewer models to deploy.

Use terrain to make the opposing army the closest visible units, remember your dreddy can't shoot what it can't see and you really want it steaming towards the enemy with murderous intent anyway, they're not fire support troops.

There should be some LOS blocking terrain on every table to make good tactical play.

 

Edit...In the last game I played I had a piece of LOS blocking terrain about 12" in from the left of my deployment zone. A shooty dreddy there would have been awesome. He could be deployed such that his line of sight goes diagonally across the table to see the whole of my opponent's deployment zone, but none of mine. In that situation any fire frenzy is a bonus, especially if you have a missile launcher and can therefore choose the best ammo depending on whether the closest enemy is a squad or a tank.

[the jeske]

In that situation any fire frenzy is a bonus, especially if you have a missile launcher and can therefore choose the best ammo depending on whether the closest enemy is a squad or a tank.

aha and now many times do you play on tables build that way ?[where one side has a clear adventage when deploying ]? I mean one could theoreticlly play on a table with narrow streets and high buildings with no windows [narrow enough for rhinos to turn without being forced to make tests] , but a terrain like that is an auto win for any nids army .

 

As the puting a lone dread on a flank goes . there is 2 ways it can work . Either the dread will be facing the whole enemy army [or at least a large part of it] and goes puff or there is hardlly going to be anything on the flank . so unlike the land raider comb he does not stop working for 1 turn , but doesnt work for 2/3 and being slow there is a chance , that when he actually gets in to range he will go puff . also he still has a 180 vision and we have true LoS now and generally chaos armies are faster then a walker , each turn you would have to check [and plan the next turn] , if the dreads sees unit X or doesnt he . All that while trying to outmanuver your opponents army .

[Brother Vader]

Who said anything about one side getting a clear advantage during deployment, not me. I only mentioned one bit of scenery. My opponent could have had even better terrain, I just didn't mention it.

In that situation the terrain would have blocked LOS all the way across my deployment zone and on a diagonal all the way across the table. That's plenty of ground to advance into without the dreddy being able to see my guys. I could also have stuck a pred, havocs or whatever on the other side of the building from the dreddy so that flank wouldn't have been weak at all and the dreddy still wouldn't have been able to see them either. I never said it was a lone dreddy, just one that couldn't see my army. It doesn't have to be a big building or wall to do that. It only needs to be a little bigger than your model's base if you deploy right next to it and 3" tall.

You only really need this to work for the 1st turn, just to make your initial moves. After that it's perfectly possible that the enemy is closer than your guys anyway. There may only be one turn in the entire game where a fire frenzy could affect your guys and even then it's a 1 in 6 chance.

My point is that terrain and LOS are the most important things to consider with a chaos dreadnought. You may never eliminate the chance of a fire frenzy shooting your guys, but you can reduce it significantly.

[the jeske]

That's plenty of ground to advance into without the dreddy being able to see my guys.

aha and your opponent deployed his army there ?...i must say am having problems with imagining this without a map , but it does look like a pice of terrain that formlly cuts the board in half if its possible to see the whole enemy deployment and only a bit of your flank . ok and what happens , if you deploy first ? the cover is limited [well at least on most non city fight hvy boards] .

It only needs to be a little bigger than your model's base if you deploy right next to it and 3" tall.

yeah unless your using rhinos , oblits and DPs ...ah yeah chaos army forgot about that for a second .

 

There may only be one turn in the entire game where a fire frenzy could affect your guys and even then it's a 1 in 6 chance.

yes and thats why if I play with a dread and I need it to do something , I always have to secure it with another unit [in case it goes crazy and doesnt shot at my enemy] . this is why dreads are really really bad . I could live with shots at your own troops if there rules said it shots once where you want it too and once on the nearest unit . A unit that can do nothing is a bad investment.

 

You may never eliminate the chance of a fire frenzy shooting your guys, but you can reduce it significantly.

the shoting at your guys isnt the most important thing . As other said you can take one with combi bolters and 2 ccw . the problem is that its a unit that has a chance of not being controled by you . that on a turn when it has to do that charge or shot at unit/tank X , it can just stand there doing nothing [well not really smoking a few guys cant be called nothing]. Just ask the khorn players how they like the 1/3 chance of their lord stuning himself in hth or WFB players with units that have frenzy .

[Zeruel]

I know this doesn't help much if your dread fire frenzies in the first turn or two but remember it is rolled for at the start of the movement phase. I would see one being very useful in an army with a Slaanesh Sorcerer/Prince with Lash. You know if the Dread is going to fire frenzy or not before moving anything so if he does get your units clear and use lash to pull enemy troops in closer. Like I said early game forces won't be mixed up enough to pull this off so reliably, so it's still a risk if he goes crazy first turn but later in the game the fire frenzy could be used to your benefit getting to shoot an enemy unit twice. I could see a Plasma Cannon being particularly nasty when used like this.

[Brother Vader]

Thank you Zeruel, it's nice to see someone thinking about how something can be used to their advantage for a change. Lash is a very popular power and that tactic is worthy of a sadistic Slaaneshi commander. You could also use lash to pull troops in range of an assualt if you rolled 'blood rage' and were out of assault range. I'd forgotten that you know before the movement phase if the dreddy is going to fire frenzy. I can just imagine the marines nearby realising what's going to happen and getting out of the danger zone. The sorceror sees the dreddy's fury and beckons the enemy terminator squad closer.......

 

Jeske, you do like your 'what ifs' don't you! :) Nothing is ever guaranteed in a game where you roll dice to decide what happens. You may get great terrain, you may get bad terrain. C'est la vie, the gods of chaos are fickle.

 

i must say am having problems with imagining this without a map , but it does look like a pice of terrain that formlly cuts the board in half if its possible to see the whole enemy deployment and only a bit of your flank

 

Okay, imagine a small building 4 inches wide and 3 inches high. That's not very big, it's the sort of thing you'd make if you turned a coke can on it's side and decided to make it into a bit of scenery like a storage tank. This small building blocks line of sight.

If you deploy next to it then it blocks LOS to everything on the other side. If you deploy a few inches away then you get a diagonal line of sight past the corners of the building. Just put a small building down on your table, plonk a dreddy next to it and experiment with LOS and you'll see what I mean. A small bit of scenery can block a lot of LOS.

 

As for warhammer players and frenzy, you clearly haven't met a Savage Orc general. They're clearly mental, but have a soft spot for the crazy uncontrollable guys and learn how to use them effectively. There is a whole forum for people who like O&G, the most uncontrollable army GW have ever done (da-warpath.com). You could try taking a leaf from their book and instead of just shooting stuff down use your knowledge of the game to come up with something that may work, like Zeruel did.

[the jeske]

Nothing is ever guaranteed in a game where you roll dice to decide what happens.

well while this is true , there is something like a big chance of something happening . techniclly you could down a falcon with a single RL in the 4th ed ... only how many people did that and how many more did that regularlly [without loaded dice].

 

 

Okay, imagine a small building 4 inches wide and 3 inches high

looks more like a pillar then a building but ok [and a coke can is longer then 4"]. it still wont block los to most rhinos [not the old ones] or DPs [unless converted to be small].

Its also depends on what kind of dread model do you use . old metal may have some problems with seeing crounching zerkers , but the plastic dread or the FW wont .

 

Just put a small building down on your table

ah yes and now everything becomes clear . terrain is placed by judges , tournamet orgs or people not playing at least here . So I can count on "puting a small building " next to a dread .

 

 

 

As for warhammer players and frenzy, you clearly haven't met a Savage Orc general.

not everyone has waggh and movement spell and boars. ask the khorn guys how they like frenzy. But thats rather off topic [the main difference between the SO and the dread is that boar boys have a longer movment its is actually possible to hide something in WFB and there is way to move stuff after the movement phase with magic . dreads dont get anything like that .

 

You know if the Dread is going to fire frenzy or not before moving anything so if he does get your units clear and use lash to pull enemy troops in closer

you lose double taping with any plasmas , normal shots with bolters/plasma [guys move range drops to 12] if enemy is over 12" , but whats most important you dont know how much the lash will roll [techniclly it should be around 7"] + if you play against an imperial/eldar army you can be sure that it has a Ld10 psychic hood of some sort . this means that to actually be sure that you move that unit closer [again you dont know how much closer] you need 2 lash .. 2 lash to fire a single plasma canon on a target you didnt pick , with a chance that it will still hit your troops [or the dp using lash as the dread /enemy unit and DP form a triangle]. specially when at the same time you can have an oblit for those 100pts that has the same plasma[or many other weapons at the same time] and it doesnt go crazy.

 

 

Forgot about one more thing you could do with dreads . Counts as demon prince . Seen it done in a IW army very nice conversions .

[Brother Vader]

Duh, I meant put a bit of scenery on your table at home so you can have a look at how LOS is blocked very efficiently if you're next to a small building.

(and the coke can was meant to by on it's side, not like a pillar. It was just an example to help you visualise)

Remember LOS is drawn from a model's eye view, not from base to base.

As for the lash, you're right, you don't know how far you'll roll, or even if it you'll pass the psychic test, but it's a good idea if you get the opportunity. You may not have to move any of your other guys depending on where they are in relation to the dreddy. Equally you don't know when deep-strikers, daemons or other reserves will arrive, or if squads will pass morale checks, or if plasma guns are going to get hot. If you want absolute certainty with your models play chess.

The DP idea is good, I mentioned it too earlier in this thread, in reply to the OP with his 6 dreads.

I nearly choked on my coffee when you suggested 'counts as' though. Are you feeling ok today, I thought you hated 'count as' because it's unfluffy? ;)

Next thing your going to tell me is that you've started using dreddys, you love them and you're always going to use them. :)

[the jeske]

(and the coke can was meant to by on it's side, not like a pillar. It was just an example to help you visualise)

would have to be cut in half or it would constantlly move around [and cut its not 3" high].

 

I thought you hated 'count as' because it's unfluffy

your werent asking for stuff I like or dont like , but for legal options . I hate the BL lash zerker/pm/oblits/termi build with all my heart , but I would still advice it as the best starting army for any chaos player.

 

Equally you don't know when deep-strikers, daemons or other reserves will arrive, or if squads will pass morale checks, or if plasma guns are going to get hot.

with 2 squads in reserv one should come on turn 2 . one coming on turn 3 is almost sure . i can plan for that . over heat or not [1/6 chance it happens] i still have a +3 save and then a +4 FnP making a dead marine with plasma rather unlikelly . + there is always 2 plasma gun [so 2 or 4 shots if double taping] , so even if I get an overheat its still ok . And I never count on 2 plasma guns to take out 4 models .

With dreads you get the random factor [1/6 goes stupid] chance that it hurts your own guys [generally own models are closer then the enemies , if its different then they are offten in hth ] + to make it actually work you need extra units , good terrain and your opponent not knowing what a dread can do . All in dread ...with 12AV .... that doesnt have arment like the 4th ed Assault canon .

 

Next thing your going to tell me is that you've started using dreddys, you love them and you're always going to use them.

ah so its love . thats explains a lot . Its like parents and ungly children love is always there. But unless someone is asking "how much do you love to use dreads" the advice given here is wrong . because the sad truth is that dreads are a less then a weak unit [spawns are weak for example] , dreads are a bad unit . there is no other option that costs the same pts that wouldnt do the same job better /cheaper or both at the same time .

[Brother Vader]

there is no other option that costs the same pts that wouldnt do the same job better /cheaper or both at the same time .

 

What job is that then? The dreddy is an all-rounder, he can shoot, fight, absorb firepower, move through difficult terrain to get better positions. He may not be better than any other unit at any one of those things, but he can do them all. Perhaps that just doesn't fit your playstyle.

Preds are good, but have no CC defence and can get immobilised in difficult ground, same for vindis.

Defilers cost more and are harder to hide.

Terminators and obliterators (the other true all-rounders) can be taken down with bolters, dreddys can't.

Daemon princes cost more, once you add wings, marks and powers, and they can also be killed with bolters.

Greater daemons have no ranged ability, will arrive randomly and can only appear by possessing a champion, and

can be killed with bolters, and cost 100pts + the cost of the champion.

Dreddy's are unpredictable, can be killed with a single shot unlike DPs, squads etc and aren't optimised for one task.

 

AV12 isn't so bad. A lascannon penetrates on a 4, but then still needs a 5 or 6 to destroy the vehicle. An obliterator would be

wounded on a 2+ then he needs a 5 or 6 to save or suffer instant death.

100 points for a dreddy with a multimelta is a good buy, there's nothing he can't hurt and while he's unpredictable for you, he's also unpredictable for your opponent too. He can easily make his 100 points back in one turn.

[the jeske]

The dreddy is an all-rounder, he can shoot, fight, absorb firepower, move through difficult terrain to get better positions

ok lets check the load outs .

 

move through terrain ... well everything can and everything tests just like a dread one way or another . but you still have to be able to put a base somewhere to stand inside [thats why its easier for csm or even terminators to move in to or through woods ] . tanks stop on difficult test . so either the dread is the same or not much better then anything else in the game.

 

absorb firepower . save against bolters ...cool ... only in very few moments is the dread going to get targeted with bolters [+ there is the thing of being able to hide oblits unlike the dread] . if it gets stuned he doesnt shot like all the tanks [save those with possesion and PotMS ] . so no better then at absorbing fire then other tanks .

 

the job it does [this one a rather long one ] . The dread [techniclly] is a shoty unit [too few attacks to do hth] . It has a huge de buff rule [going crazy]] , but lets ignore that for a minute . The weapon load outs las /plas with options for RL [but thats a bad options losing the dccw is a bad move as it does make the dread very weak against anyform of hth]. single shot weapons with BS of 4 with cover all around . to make them effective you have to run in pairs [like almost everything in the 5th ed]. HQs/Troops are unchangable so what are the options you can drop for dreads from a chaos army . The oblits ? they are a better hvy support , and you would have to drop 2x2 units what would leave you with extra pts with not many options to spend those pts on . So not for oblits . The termis are a better choice they cost more or less the same pts [if you use 4man squads with 3 its rather hard ] . Lets assume you make the switch and the dreads are now your meta choice for land raiders /mcs and co . Now termis have a better chance of doing something to a MC or LR . 4combi melta better then one lascanon, 4 combi plasma better one plasmacanon + as the codex says your buying a combi weapon and not a combi plasma/melta you can switch the weapons between games with the list staying legal [huge bonus].

 

where is the dread better then those termis ? It aint better in hth and it aint better in shoting . Its better against bolter fire [but again both the dread and termis will mostlly get hit by stuff other then bolters or bolters +specials etc] . the dread is slower [specially in its job as an anti LR meta , it take 2 turns for it to get in to range and it can always go crazy when its actually in range] . The dread has a better survival chance against IC . Only in most good army builds lone IC arent going to charge the dread and they are all faster then the dread , so being charge by the dread has a slim chance for happening in many games [yes I know you can make a hth dread pin stuff with pms and then charge in with the dread , but the dreads rules make it rather hard to do everytime+ our dreads hth isnt that breath taking]. As taking fire from hvy weapons I dont know what is better a termi that has cover +4 or a dread that has problems with getting cover [cant run next to rhinos etc ] , but I give you that its not a defiler or LR that never gets cover .

[Brother Vader]

All your points are valid. The dreddy is not optimised to do any task better than ony other unit in the army. But I'll still maintain that for 100 points with a multimelta, something that brings a mobile heavy weapon, a strength 10 power weapon, fearless and immunity to small arms fire and most CC attacks (except powerfists, klaws etc) is worth it. Maybe getting him cover could be a problem, but that's dependant on the tables, not his rules. Certainly on my local club tables there's cover to be had for dreddys, which is nice.

The 'crazed' rule can throw a spanner in the works, but can be mitigated against to some extent, and when he's close to your opponent's army he's just as likely to go for them anyway. There's nothing he can't wound, kill, damage or destroy so if you keep him cheap and use him wisely he can make his points back and be useful.

[Lord Doyok]

Dreadnaught is a liability. A big liability to your army.

 

Because of that, Dreads are just for fun games, when you dont really care to win but just to play (i did plan to take them to RTT though ;)).

 

For me, my 2 Dreads are just so crazy they firefrenzy twice in a game most time. For that they lose chance to move forward and sucks big time. But looking at the bright side, they are fun. And nothing else matter in a fun friendly games except to have a good time and good laughs.

 

For 200pts I would rather take 5 termies over 2 dreads. But i still choose to use 2 Dreads for the past few games just to have fun. Even funnier, i win those games :P

 

What i'm trying to say is, take them if you want. And be ready for the frenzy. Whether you cry or laugh is up to you.

If you dont take them, then let it be. There's not anyone here who dont know just how sucks they are compared to other choices we have in the dex.

 

I'm done here. You guys may continue with your arguing :)

[Arkaun]

Id just like to say. That i never have huge problems with my dread. Then again i usually play 500pt games atm so my dread doesnt have much to fear in the way of enemy heavy weapons. I just popped on two close combat arms some Extra armor and sent him running headfirst into the enemy.

 

Deepstrike some terminators into that and youve got yourself a bloodbath.

[walpurgisnacht]

The first night I played Chaos Marines was the night that I acquired the army. Long story. Off topic.

My foe was 4ED Necrons. My force consisted of not one but two dreads and havoc squad, multiple small troops of different schemed legions lord and bikers. Second turn my dreads both go crazy and shoot each other, destroying one and stunning the other. Third turn remaining dread shredded on friendly unit, I decided to shoot the havocs at the dread, hence immobilizing it. Fourth turn, it tests and rolls the shooty right into shroud-lord, killing outright. It was a beautiful defeat as the remains of my army was picked apart, one that I learned from. I learned how to laugh at dice and get into character as a crazed mechanical monstrosity out for destruction. I played with one per army list as a mandatory addition to comp troops. Playing Chaos is random events used as tactical strikes to carefully ordered battle plans.

But by the Gods, 6 in one army list is too much, what a fallen Iron Hands/Iron Warrior crossover fluff-wise?

Dreads have IMHO a place in the theme of CSM and remember its not what is on your list, its how you roll the dice.

[the jeske]

I decided to shoot the havocs at the dread,

you cant shot at your own units .

 

 

Playing Chaos is random events used as tactical strikes to carefully ordered battle plans.

0_o I think its one of the most strange things , I heard about any game with rules ever .

Random and plans . thats like a assault gunline list .