Help me wrap my head around counter attack and True grit in

[Godhead]

Ok I have read the FAQ and searched through the forums and I still have questions. Granted I may have missed something, but I guess thats why they call it missing.

 

I just want to confirm that I would need to equip a GH with a Pfist/Bp in order to gain the +1 attack from CA? So a successful LD test with this equipment combination would yeild 2 attacks with a fist and a pfist/bolter would still only yield one attack correct?

 

Sorry for the newb questions.

 

-Edit-

 

Ok after rereading the FAQ yet again, for some reason the whole ccw/bolter = 2 attacks with no test needed confused me (2 am at work).

 

So GH's using true grit will always have 2 attacks even with a failed CA test. A PFist/bolter equipped model will always have 1 attack on a counter attack, so I'd want the BP in order to have the chance at the 2 attacks . A Pack leader won't matter since i can choose not to use true grit and make the test and could have 3 attacks on a successful CA with a Pfist or 4 if I have a wolf pelt.

[Max_Dammit]

There is no real answer to that, if you go raw than you jest get the one atack, but i feel thats wrong and say my marine drops the bolter and charges only with his fist.

 

In the rules its says that TG doesnt give you the bonus for the charge, but TG is broken and no longer a real rule

[Guest WG Vrox]

Never mind, now I got myself confused.

[Logain the Ranger]

Your only supposed to get your base attacks with a fist. (GH would be one) The two weapons, charging, and counter attack are negated. If you had two fists you would get the bonus for having two weapons. (Guard get two attacks with a fist since their base attacks are 2)

[Venter_Of_Russ]

We've always ruled in my group that the Space Wolf player decides to either aggressively counter attack or stand and fight with TG; if they counter-attack, then they get bonus attacks for things like power fists and extra bonus attacks for anyone wielding a pistol, but the downside is that a failed leadership check might leave them with no attacks at all.

[Max_Dammit]

Your only supposed to get your base attacks with a fist. (GH would be one) The two weapons, charging, and counter attack are negated. If you had two fists you would get the bonus for having two weapons. (Guard get two attacks with a fist since their base attacks are 2)

 

Not true, If you have a bolt pistol than you'd get the 2 attacks, +1 for charge even on fists.

[Godhead]

Heh. I have reread my post after the responses and I think i've only managed to confuse myself further.

 

So is there really any reason to put a fist on a GH? Maybe I should just go with 2 pweapons and put the fist on the PL with a wolf pelt?

[deedark]

Thought in the 5th they'd changed the rules so only paired P/fists/lightning claws etc. gained a bonus for two CCWs,

thats why I've put my fists on WGuards as they have 2 base attacks.

 

D.

[Max_Dammit]

Yeah true, but charging gives +1 no matter what weapon.

 

So BC's have 3 attacks with PF and a WG with pelt could have 4 if charging or make there counter charge LD test

[Godhead]

So whats everyones take? 2 power weapons and a fist on the pack leader or 1 fist/1 pw/1fist on the pack leader? Also how do you feel about a wolf tooth necklace on the pack leader as well? Im thinking hitting on a 3+ no matter what means the fist does it's job vs IC's/MC's/CC elites.

[Max_Dammit]

pack leaders are to expensive for my taste, so i use different things but always have one fist in there, dont want to be fighting something you cant kill

 

My BC's are still the fist, he GH's go mixed. sorry but i cant pass on 6 pf attacks on the charge :devil:

[Wolf89]

I thought there was a chart that someone made for this?... Possibly in the FAQ section? too lazy to look it up but it's here somewhere.

 

Basically it goes as such for a power fist:

 

BP/PF GH on the charge will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for charing

Bolter/PF GH on the charge will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for charging

 

BP/PF GH on the counter (assuming passed Ld test), will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for counter

Bolter/PF GH on the counter (assuming passed Ld test), will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for counter

 

The arguement isn't whether to use a BP/Bolter with a powerfist for extra attacks, as you only get them for having 2 fists. The argument is whether you want to be able to shoot before you charge, which if it's on a GH unit, I ALWAYS go with bolters since they're best on the counter to rapid fire before.

 

I kit mine out usually with a power fist, but lately players prefer the power weapons since you get more attacks during second round of combat instead of just 1 attack for power fists (just the base of the model). So using your WGPL's with a wolf pelt and power fist is possibly THE best thing to do, I used this combination with my 13th company giving him a bolter/PF with MotW, this yields 3 attacks base, 1 for counter, 1 for wolf pelt, and D3 extra with a possible of 6-8 power fists hitting on 3's... it was a nasty combo that saw many a MC, vehicle, or even hordes dead in their tracks.

[jester262]

I thought there was a chart that someone made for this?... Possibly in the FAQ section? too lazy to look it up but it's here somewhere.

 

 

 

Bolter/PF GH on the charge will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for charging

 

Untrue. True grit negates you receiving plus 1 attack on the charge. You only get your base

[Wolf89]

I thought there was a chart that someone made for this?... Possibly in the FAQ section? too lazy to look it up but it's here somewhere.

 

 

 

Bolter/PF GH on the charge will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for charging

 

Untrue. True grit negates you receiving plus 1 attack on the charge. You only get your base

 

Actually your statement is the one that's untrue my good sir. :P Let me explain. ;)

 

True grit DOES negate you receiving the plus 1 attack on the charge IF you use true grit by using your bolter as a 2nd CCW. In the special rules it states:

In game terms, this means that they MAY count their bolter (including combi-weapons but not storm bolters) as a bolt pistol in close combat and will therefore be allowed to roll an extra Attack dice if they have been equipped with a second pistol or close combat weapon. However a model using their bolter in this manner may not recieve the attack bonus for charging, as a bolter is too unwieldy to be fired with one hand while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy.

(only thing I changed from the codex is bolding the word "may" to explain my next statement).

 

As you can see the word "may" plays a big role in this rule, you don't have to use the bolter as a second ccw so you still get the charge bonus. ;)

 

Pretty cool huh? :P

[Wolf89]

I thought there was a chart that someone made for this?... Possibly in the FAQ section? too lazy to look it up but it's here somewhere.

 

Ha! I knew someone made one, I'll post it here as well but it's original is in the 5th ed. FAQ for the B&C at the top of the Space Wolves forum.

 

Q - I am confused, HOW many attacks do I get on the charge/counter-attack for my GH/BC?

A - Not a simple answer, so I will put it in quotes to try and seperate it from the main Q&A.

This assumes you pass your leadership test for Counter-Attack.

 

GH (BP/CCW) - 1 Base, +1 for 2 CCW, +1 for Charge/CA = 3 Attacks

GH (B/CCW) - 1 Base, +1 for 2 CCW, no Charge/CA [Per True Grit] = 2 Attacks (no Ld Test needed)

BC (BP/CCW) - 1 Base, +1 for 2 CCW, +2 for Charge/CA (Berserk Charge) = 4 Attacks

It is worth noting that you are not required to use "True Grit" even if you have a Bolter. For example, a Bolter/PF would get no benefit from 2CCW, so you can decline to use it and instead take the leadership test for the counter-attack, even if only a single model (the one with B/PF) does so.

 

I knew Omar was good for something. :mellow:

[OnlyInDeath]

I really dont know why people think that GH's dont get 2 attacks on either a charge or a counter charge. As Wolf said, it's an optional thing, so if you decide to charge with true grit, you still get the +1 attack, same as any vanilla marine out there. This rule hasnt changed since 4th ed for us, so you still get +1 attack on a charge...

The combination of true grit and countercharge WHEN charged means that you will always have 2 attacks upon recieving the charge, be it from the +1 for countercharging, or the +1 for true grit (as you recieved the attack, even the "response" in the assault phase does not count as charging unless the countercharge Ld test is passed).

 

And Wolf also has it right on with the powerfists and GH's or BC's. I will go on to say that the only way to really get a gigantic amt of PF attacks is to have them on an IC or WGPL and have them countercharge with the wolfpelt. Since pelts stack, you actually get your oldschool +2 attacks on the counterchage (+3 if you are in a unit with Ragnar) so you could have a very hard hitting model, if only he can survive long enuf to use it :mellow:

[TheLastHuzzah]

2 power weapons and a fist on the pack leader

 

That's how I run my packs, BCs are a bit different story depending on # of 'Claws and what I have with them. I don't like the WTN on the PL, It's tough to justify the additional 10 points on an already 50 pointish model.

 

-Huzzah

[Logain the Ranger]

pack leaders are to expensive for my taste, so i use different things but always have one fist in there, dont want to be fighting something you cant kill

 

My BC's are still the fist, he GH's go mixed. sorry but i cant pass on 6 pf attacks on the charge :lol:

 

I don't use pack leaders either. I perfer straight squads with a power weapon and fist in each.

[jester262]

I thought there was a chart that someone made for this?... Possibly in the FAQ section? too lazy to look it up but it's here somewhere.

 

 

 

Bolter/PF GH on the charge will yield 2 attacks, one for base, one for charging

 

Untrue. True grit negates you receiving plus 1 attack on the charge. You only get your base

 

Actually your statement is the one that's untrue my good sir. :P Let me explain. ;)

 

True grit DOES negate you receiving the plus 1 attack on the charge IF you use true grit by using your bolter as a 2nd CCW. In the special rules it states:

In game terms, this means that they MAY count their bolter (including combi-weapons but not storm bolters) as a bolt pistol in close combat and will therefore be allowed to roll an extra Attack dice if they have been equipped with a second pistol or close combat weapon. However a model using their bolter in this manner may not recieve the attack bonus for charging, as a bolter is too unwieldy to be fired with one hand while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy.

(only thing I changed from the codex is bolding the word "may" to explain my next statement).

 

As you can see the word "may" plays a big role in this rule, you don't have to use the bolter as a second ccw so you still get the charge bonus. ;)

 

Pretty cool huh? ^_^

 

holy crap! I never looked at it like that! Touche ^_^

[Grimfoe]

Amen to Wolf

 

Amen to OnlyInDeath

 

With a powerfist, you never recieve the bonus for an additional hand weapon, so why bother with a pistol. Much better to have the bolter and hit your opponent on the counter charge. I see no reason, however, that you wouldn't receive the charge bonus. That's crazy. Either or charges or counter charges. GH's get 2 attacks.

 

Also, with pack leaders, you might as well deck them out with a fist and a combi-weapon. Since you're already forfitting the additional attack, you might as well have a shot with a melta gun before you go in. I have great success with combi-meltas for my Blood Claw's WGPL.

 

As such, I have two GH squads with PF/PW and one with two powerfists. (that one was outfitted in 2nd edition)