waaanial00 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Hi all, Pretty new to this forum but have done my search-fu on this matter and came up with nada. Was looking at my bright shiny new Marine Codex the other day and noticed that there is no way to grow the command squad more than 5, do we consider this a misprint or is it intentional. Also a more interpretation question, if I upgrade my Veteran to Company Champion can I give him more upgrades that are for Veterans? Same question with respect to the Apothecary, can he ever have more than the bolt pistol and chansword? Cheers Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Command squad is 5 men. That's your lot. Apothecary and Champion are not "veterans" so cannot have gear specifically for "veterans". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Also for 5th Ed, no more Terminator Armour for the Command Squad. Just give all the Vets power weapons. Cheap but choppy squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Also a more interpretation question, if I upgrade my Veteran to Company Champion can I give him more upgrades that are for Veterans? there is a way around it, buy a veteran some gear from the list (example 2 Lightning claws), and THEN upgrade him to a company champion, that gives you a power sword, combat shield, and 2xLightning claws if you like, although its allot of pts, so stupid to do apoths your out of luck though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Tweedle Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 The apothecary's nartecium is not a weapon, right? I may be wrong, but as far as I remember it used to count as a power fist in the old codex. Am I correct? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 The apothecary's nartecium is not a weapon, right? I may be wrong, but as far as I remember it used to count as a power fist in the old codex. Am I correct? nope, not even as far back as the 3rd edition codex. although I'd still like to know why Apothecaries still carry around a genus of flowering plants :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 there is a way around it, buy a veteran some gear from the list (example 2 Lightning claws), and THEN upgrade him to a company champion, that gives you a power sword, combat shield, and 2xLightning claws if you like, although its allot of pts, so stupid to do I really don't think you can, though RAW is not as clear as it should be on this point. The champion has the wargear he has. there is no suggestion of any relationship between his gear and that of a veteran. I am pretty sure the intent is to upgrade the model, then to upgrade the wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Yeah, I really don't think you can do that staged upgrade thing to the champion. He replaces his gear with the powersword and combat shield. So sure, waste all those points on claws and whatnot, but as soon as you make him a champion, it all goes poof and you get a sword and shield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 there is a way around it, buy a veteran some gear from the list (example 2 Lightning claws), and THEN upgrade him to a company champion, that gives you a power sword, combat shield, and 2xLightning claws if you like, although its allot of pts, so stupid to do I really don't think you can, though RAW is not as clear as it should be on this point. The champion has the wargear he has. there is no suggestion of any relationship between his gear and that of a veteran. I am pretty sure the intent is to upgrade the model, then to upgrade the wargear. I agree that is the intent, but I was giving the Rule as Written, I would never do it myself, or condone it, but there the rules, so I have no choice in the matter if someone did want to do it Yeah, I really don't think you can do that staged upgrade thing to the champion. He replaces his gear with the powersword and combat shield. So sure, waste all those points on claws and whatnot, but as soon as you make him a champion, it all goes poof and you get a sword and shield. nope, nowhere in the entry does it say replace "one veteran may be upgraded to a company champion with a power sword and Combat shield" doesn't say replace so he technically has a Bolt pistol, chainsword, shield and power sword as I said I'm sure thats not as intended, but its as written, so if someone did it we have no leg to stand on argument wise, but we can laugh as they waste points on someone that dies VERY easily Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1770958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 At the same time, nowehere does it say the Champion in any way keeps the wargear given to a veteran, it simply defines the wargear he has as a champion. What with the old permissive ruleset argument and all, I'd have to say you need to find something saying he can keep those weapons, not just the absense of anything clearly saying he cannot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1771013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 What with the old permissive ruleset argument and all, I'd have to say you need to find something saying he can keep those weapons, not just the absense of anything clearly saying he cannot. why not?, not having to find evidence to support your opinion works for every other argument on B&C, how do you think its lasted this long ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1771034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 At the same time, nowehere does it say the Champion in any way keeps the wargear given to a veteran, it simply defines the wargear he has as a champion. What with the old permissive ruleset argument and all, I'd have to say you need to find something saying he can keep those weapons, not just the absense of anything clearly saying he cannot. I think he keeps his original wargear. Otherwise he has no power armor, frags, krak or pistol. Are you going to argue that the company champion goes to battle naked? OTOH, I agree that you cannot upgrade a vet then upgrade to a champ. First, if you follow the procession in the unit entry it talks about upgrading to a champ before it talks about upgrading vets. The logical chronology is that you choose what they are first, then give them gear. Second, if he is no longer a vet then he is no longer eligible for the upgrade. Even if you try to get it first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1771645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 so you think the champ has a chainsword, BP or bolter, power weapon, AND a storm shield? he need a WS5 just to know what he's swinging... there is nothing that says this ain't so, though... no "replace" etc... he's one tooled out astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1771672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Actually, I'm a bit confused now. Does he even keep the pistol or does he behave as if he traded items for the shield and sword, like a normal vet can? I honestly don't know what wargear the champion is supposed to have. I certainly would not say he loses the power armour, though this is pretty much irrelevant as he still has a 3+ save on his profile. Does not really matter whether this is from power armour or a conveniently placed cigarillo case. Dunno anymore. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1771849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitan Montag Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 This is bugging me too, as I want to tool up a command squad with storm shields. (So the models look cool - I doubt it'll be worth the points). But the Company Champion has a Combat Shield - it's not as good, I'd want to upgrade it to a storm shield, to match his friends, but I worry I'd be cheating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1772644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 there is a way around it, buy a veteran some gear from the list (example 2 Lightning claws), and THEN upgrade him to a company champion, that gives you a power sword, combat shield, and 2xLightning claws if you like, although its allot of pts, so stupid to do Does that mean I can equip one of my Chaos Marines with a Lasercannon or Meltagun and then upgrade him to a champion? Can IG veteran sergeants get the squads heavy or special weapon too? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1772725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 there is a way around it, buy a veteran some gear from the list (example 2 Lightning claws), and THEN upgrade him to a company champion, that gives you a power sword, combat shield, and 2xLightning claws if you like, although its allot of pts, so stupid to do Does that mean I can equip one of my Chaos Marines with a Lasercannon or Meltagun and then upgrade him to a champion? Can IG veteran sergeants get the squads heavy or special weapon too? dunno, can't be bothered to get the codex's to read the wording :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1772728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdom like silence Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 there is a way around it, buy a veteran some gear from the list (example 2 Lightning claws), and THEN upgrade him to a company champion, that gives you a power sword, combat shield, and 2xLightning claws if you like, although its allot of pts, so stupid to do Does that mean I can equip one of my Chaos Marines with a Lasercannon or Meltagun and then upgrade him to a champion? Can IG veteran sergeants get the squads heavy or special weapon too? The order in which the upgrades are presented (Upgrade to Champion, the options a Champion has, and then the options for regular CSMs) imply that you're supposed to apply the upgrades in some sort of sequence, but there is no written rule that says you have to follow that order of upgrades. So, in answer to your question, as far as I can tell, Yes. I don't really see why you would particularly want to, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1772753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 so you think the champ has a chainsword, BP or bolter, power weapon, AND a storm shield? he need a WS5 just to know what he's swinging... there is nothing that says this ain't so, though... no "replace" etc... he's one tooled out astartes. Well, the chainsword is just redundant. It does not matter if he has one or not. The pistol is nice for the single shot and for the bonus attack since he has a combat shield, not a storm shield. It also fits in with all the other marines who have a bolt pistol as standard armament. But yes, he has all that because the entry does not say he drops it and does not indicate it is vet only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1772929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverneil Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Apologies for relighting this one, but I'm making up a command squad at the moment and have noticed that the Company champion figure comes with a pistol and shield on his right arm. I'd hate to have to chop that pistol out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1817246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 You don't have to. Just read the friggin entry. You start with a model that has x equipment. When you upgrade him, he gets y equipment. It doesn't say to replace x equipment when you do so, as such, you have both x and y equipment. Don't bother with the chainsword, as it's pointless. Just worry about modeling the pistol, combat shield, and power weapon. Then again, some one might question you as to why you are bothering with oh-so-crappy combat shields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1817472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Does that mean I can equip one of my Chaos Marines with a Lasercannon or Meltagun and then upgrade him to a champion? Can IG veteran sergeants get the squads heavy or special weapon too? For CSM, no. A model is upgraded to become an Aspiring Champion. He's no longer a Chaos Space Marine by name; he's now an Aspiring Champion. Now it says a Chaos Space Marine may get x weapon. Those are the terms used, so no go for them, as a CSM is not an AC by name. For IG, there are 9 Guardsmen and 1 Sergeant per squad, written like in the new C:SM. For options, it says either "Two Guardsmen may form" or "One Guardsman not acting as etc". As a Guardsman is not a Sergeant, same no go. The only time a sergeant or leader was able to get squad gear was in the 4th edition C:SM, as it specifically said so. Just my 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1818506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 It's really simple. It lists the Company Champion's stat line. He has a 3+ save. He has power armour and he replaces his bp/ccw for a power sword and combat shield. Regardless, he's not worth taking. You lose flexibility for +1 WS. No thank you. Here is my recommendation for a command squad: 4 vets with 4 flamers/4 plasma guns, 4 power weapons and if you want, 4 storm shields...+the apoth. Suddenly you have a geared up, focused cc nightmare for anyone you face. Stick them in a land raider crusader and watch your opponent cry. without the storm shields, a 4 vet w/company standard, 4 flamer, 4 power weapon + apoth squad would run you 210 points. Without the banner it's a sub-200 point squad. Not bad considering what they're going to do once they come out of that land raider. Same squad with storm shields will run you 270...a considerable amount more...but if you're facing something like tau or ig...it would be worth it. But seriously...people need to stop rule bending. This is a stupid rule bend...though no where near as stupid as the telion granting stealth to his squad rules bend...sheesh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1818837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Normally if anyone in a unit is allowed something then the wording will be 'any model' I'd go with no on the extras front i'm afraid ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1818845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 As a Company Champion is no longer a Veteran, he no longer meets the requirements for the other model options and cannot keep them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/#findComment-1819227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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