Souchan Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 As a Company Champion is no longer a Veteran, he no longer meets the requirements for the other model options and cannot keep them. Typically I would agree with this, but the Ork FAQ sets precedent that this is not the case, in relation to Shoot Boys Nobz who are allowed to purchase any equipment before forcing the entire mob to exchange their sluggas and choppas for shootas. As he has nothing that he needs to hand in before being upgraded, one could look at it along these lines. GW really should have set an order or made clear that the order of such purchases doesn't matter in the slightest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1819461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 GW simply needs to have the same team of people work on every codex, and have the same team playtest and proofread every codex so they don't have things like this creep in. Anyway I wouldn't even bother with the champ (as mentioned)-yes he's WS 5, but he's still I4 and has a single wound. I find 4xplasma guns and a couple (if I can afford them) of stormshields make an excellent MEQ killer unit, and the aforementioned flamers if you're facing Horde armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1819476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Honestly, I think they can do fine with the seperate teams making the codex, I do like the different styles, but then to have an editing team and playtesters that try to tidy up the rules and their wordings in relation to all existing codices. of course I have no idea how much effort that would actually be, but I like to ponder such ludicris fancies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1819497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 4 vets with 4 flamers/4 plasma guns, 4 power weapons and if you want, 4 storm shields...+the apoth. Suddenly you have a geared up, focused cc nightmare for anyone you face. Stick them in a land raider crusader and watch your opponent cry. without the storm shields, a 4 vet w/company standard, 4 flamer, 4 power weapon + apoth squad would run you 210 points. Without the banner it's a sub-200 point squad. Not bad considering what they're going to do once they come out of that land raider. Same squad with storm shields will run you 270...a considerable amount more...but if you're facing something like tau or ig...it would be worth it. But seriously...people need to stop rule bending. This is a stupid rule bend...though no where near as stupid as the telion granting stealth to his squad rules bend...sheesh. Why would you take a power sword and a storm shield? You know you don't get the bonus attack for 2 ccw's if you have a storm shield, correct? Lightning claws and power swords cost the same, it'd be better to get those. Also, why would you run this weak 270 point unit... You can get 7 TH/SS termies for 280. 2 more guys, all ST8, 2+ save. That's a MUCH better investment. As to your comment about Telion... that's a genuine discussion, as Telion is most certainly NOT worth 50 points by himself, in most people's opinions. IF he granted the squad he was in stealth, he would be well worth the points. But, that's for a different discussion. The command squad I'm currently converting up: 4 flamers, 2 of which are armed with lightning claws. I use He'Stan, so 4 twin-linked flamers hurt like hell. Before anyone says it, I get a captain in addition to He'Stan, that's how I get the command squad. Then again, I really only use this in really low points games where I don't use He'Stan (750-), or large games where I can support to pricey IC's and a semi-souped command squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1819560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redleg Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Well...I'm glad this thread popped up because it forced me to look at the Command Squad section of my Codex a little more closely. I didn't notice until just now that Command Squad Veterans seem to be the only figures in the game that can take the Storm Shield without it replacing a boltgun/boltpistol or chainsword. Maybe I'll model up 4 Vets with Powerfists, Stormshields, and Stormbolters just for the heck of it. It might be a 287pt point sink...but I think I'd enjoy it while it lasted: A combination of Assault Terminators and Regular Terminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1820120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf_nr Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Well...I'm glad this thread popped up because it forced me to look at the Command Squad section of my Codex a little more closely. I didn't notice until just now that Command Squad Veterans seem to be the only figures in the game that can take the Storm Shield without it replacing a boltgun/boltpistol or chainsword. Maybe I'll model up 4 Vets with Powerfists, Stormshields, and Stormbolters just for the heck of it. It might be a 287pt point sink...but I think I'd enjoy it while it lasted: A combination of Assault Terminators and Regular Terminators. Horrible points sink and horrible to face ... perhaps I should too... oooh, don't forget the FNP from the apothecary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1821050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverneil Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I'd say that the company champ keeps his original veteran gear. The key word when selecting a champ is 'upgrade' of a veteran. I've looked throughout the SM codex and the only other places that the use of the word 'upgrading' occurs is with a Librarian upgrade to an epistolary, and with a land speeder when upgrading to Typhoon missile launcher or a Tornado option. In neither of these examples is any original equipment lost, other wise i could upgrade a Landspeeder to a tornado (Heavy Bolter} for x points. If I loose my original HB as part of the upgrade, then what have i got for the extra X points, absolutely diddly. I got a new HB as part of the upgrade, but lost the old HB as upgrade means I loose the original equipment. Obviously this is not the intent. In addition to this the actual model comes with a pistol and shield as part of the model. I know that dont mean its a rule , but its still a good indicator of what the champ should have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1821256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 You are correct, I think, silverneil. The champ keeps his bolter/bolt pistol and chainsword, and then gets a powersword and shield. However, once he is a champ, he's a champ and not a vet. As such, he cannot be legally upgraded with all the things vets get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1821871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverneil Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Ta Manic, thats how I plan to use him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1822006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Interestingly enough, you could have a champ with a bolter, chainsword, power sword, and shield. You get a bolter and the bonus attacks in CC. Everyone should keep this in mind: Yes, you can upgrade any vet to have a storm shield, without swapping for a different weapon. However, you can never claim the +1 bonus attack for 2 ccw's if you have a storm shield, regardless. As such, a vet with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield only has 2 attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1822316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Brother SuM Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Well, since we are on this topic, I might as well ask another thing that has crossed my mind. Yes, we now are only allowed 5 members in our Command Squad. One per Captain. What if... What if, I have two Captains? Does that mean two Apothecaries? Two Champs? I don't see any restriction on the amount of Captains. BTW, I'm just saying... Not that I would do it. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1822765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverneil Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 The 1st Line of the Command Squad entry on Page 54 tells you in an unambiguous sentence. I wont quote it, as I'm sure this forum does not allow rule quotes, but the answe is yes you can. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1822787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Brother SuM Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Without even looking at my codex, I know exactly the quote you are talking about. Thank you... I'm liking this idea... Yet another Razorback I can field to protect the objective and what have you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1822797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Well, since we are on this topic, I might as well ask another thing that has crossed my mind. Yes, we now are only allowed 5 members in our Command Squad. One per Captain. What if... What if, I have two Captains? Does that mean two Apothecaries? Two Champs? I don't see any restriction on the amount of Captains. BTW, I'm just saying... Not that I would do it. :blink: I don't get your question... Are you suggesting that: You can take multiple command squads? or If you take multiple captains, there command squads can be formed into one super command squad? You can take a command squad per captain. 2 captains = 2 command squads. They do not combine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1824868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmongrel Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 After looking into the Champion's wargear issue, I offer this observation. GW has made it quite clear in numerous ways that they expect armies to be made WYSIWYG, especially for tournament play (it all boils down to more dollars for the company, right?). That said, every model identified as a Company Champion in the 5th ed. codex is pictured with the bolt pistol/combat shield arm provided in the command squad box. Despite the fact that models are often a poor indicator of the rules, if we hold GW to the same WYSIWYG standard I find it hard to believe that they intended for the Company Champion to take the field without a bolt pistol. Additionally, every other standard foot slogging (and bike mounted) marine has a bolt pistol among his wargear, including the heavy weapon toting Devastators. I think such a literal "power weapon and combat shield only" reading flies in the face of the preponderance of evidence provided by GW itself. What would be a neat feature for the B&C would be a GW liaison. Someone who could officially clear up the reading of any rules dispute. As long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1912647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 The Champion just gained the power weapon and combat shield, he doesn't lose anything. If he did he would lose everything including his grenades and power armor, and please don't make a new "terminator with terminator armor" discussion with the new dex. If he did he would have a separate entry on the left with the bullets like the Apothecary has. And for those using the nob argument, nobs upgrade before the squad they're in can change weapons from sluggas to shootas. So following that precedent, champions upgrade and gain he power weapon and combat shield before any veterans can change their weapons. So when it's veterans' turn to upgrade weapons, a champ can't because he's already upgraded just like how a nob can't get a powerfist and then get a big shoota. And the model which was made for the new dex has a bolt pistol and I can't think of any cass where GW has given a model wargear it can't have under the current codex. Why can't we just take the simplest and most obvious routewhen there are no clear rules to support either side? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152087-command-squad-size/page/2/#findComment-1916071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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