Tfcdogbert Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I havent really seen anything directly on this, but just how strong is the faith of the sisters, now im not reffering to the tabletop representation and the fact that they can fight using it literally as a weapon, what i mean is their faith in the Emperor, (I have seen the one on the fallen sister of Khorne) the nub of the extended question is that have the sisters ever turned traitor, as a whole have they ever turned and become agents of Chaos in the official fluff, i dont know anything about this having happenned so i was just wondering whether it had at any point, the reason for this is that ive allways seen their faith in the imperium and in the Emperor to be if anything far stronger than any marine with the exception of the Grey Knights. And as a suplemental, if it had, how do they fight, do they fight say in a similar way except they draw new power from their belief in the chaos gods in the same fashion that they do for the Emperor? Or would they become like those that turned, like the guard just using nothing but their combat prowess and so forth without their advantages from the faith? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I think Melissia mentioned elsewhere that only one Sister has ever turned, no idea where it comes from, hopefully she'll turn up and post the info. I think the precedent is that they tend to be killed before they can turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppella Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Only one Sister [1 solo sister, just 1 ol human] has official fluff of turning. She turned to Slannesh. I believe that was in Demonifuge. Its not even the fact that they would be killed by others before giving up their faith. They would kill themselves as martyrs before allowing themselves to turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I think Melissia mentioned elsewhere that only one Sister has ever turned, no idea where it comes from, hopefully she'll turn up and post the info. I think the precedent is that they tend to be killed before they can turn. There's a short stories in one of the GW compilations about a single sister who has turned and went chaos.. was it the Ultramarines compilation? I've read it, but I can't remember which fat fat book it was in. EDIT: Doh, sharked! Okay, so that would make TWO, count em, 2 sisters that turned. The one I was thinking of wasn't slaanesh that I can remember, unless it's the same character with multiple stories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Second edition Sisters of Battle codex states taht only one Sister has ever turned in their entire history, and that Sister became an infamous champion for Chaos afterwards. Codex: Witch Hunters is a rulebook more than a fluff book, as many 4E and 3E books ended up being... and so it made no mention of it. Indeed, it only made a single sentence mention of the invasion of Armageddon, their presence on Cadia, etc, and barely any mention of any real fluff at all in comparison to 2E. From Lexicanum: The following statement comes from the Codex: Sisters of Battle 2 edition: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tfcdogbert Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Thank you all, is there any further detailing on her deeds after her fall? I mean exactly how did she become a renowned champion of chaos with, no degredation to the sisters themselves, only human characteristics? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 She was probably a good lay... *shifty eyes* Besides... just because you are human don't mean anything... *points at any of the random hundreds of inquisitors, greater leaders of humanity, sisters of battle cannonness, commissars etc...* What matters is that inside your a righteous crazy lunatic or at least appear to be one in front of everyone else... Man I love the caiphus cain series... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 No clue, personalyl. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakehunter52 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 You know, it is kinda of an interesting fact how faithful the sisters are. When you compare them to the Space Marines, who actually walked and talked with the Emperor and yet still half (well, a little bit more than since some of the DA fell too) went to Chaos. I am sure it helps that the leader of their order was able to see the Emperor herself but I think it also comes from the fact that they we never gods in the eyes of men, that they were always able to keep a humbleness to themselves and when they are gifted with something like getting to see him, it is much more significant to them as opposed to a Space Marine who would be a bit more used to that. Not to say that Space Marines wouldn't find this awe inspiring but I think that normal humans would feel it on a different level, hence the Cult of the Emperor emerging. But...just speculations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 @jakehunter52: That is incredibly insightful... I like it! I like it a lot.. well done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAR Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 so two sisters have fallen to Slaanesh (champuion and daemonfuige). After reading Faith and Fire novel they will repent higher sins by becoming repentias which is a death sentance. Sisters in modern day would bey religous fanatics but in 40k univ, They are the most holy figures and beside the custodes the last 6 people to see the Emperorer on the golden Throne were Sisters Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Not counting of course the ideals that the knights are buried beneath the emperor and probably pass him on a regular basis... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Daemonifuge rather contradicts the codex, so I'm hesitant to consider it canon myself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Daemonifuge rather contradicts the codex, so I'm hesitant to consider it canon myself.It was not written by the 'studio', and thus can be freely ignored as is seen fit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Contrary to popular belief, I'm not all about Sisters turning to Khorne. That being said... Because of the existence of Repentia, we know that Sisters aren't completely infalible: if they can commit sins, it is reasonable to believe they can commit sins of varrying degrees of seriousness. The Repentia of course represent how the Sisterhood deals with such sins, though I am lead to believe (through historical references) that only serious crimes are rewarded with service in the repentia while all sorts of lesser infringments are punished by other acts of penance (such as exile for a high-ranking Sisters). However, if the Sisterhood were not there to punish the sins of individual Sisters, then what would happen? As I've said before, I'm not all about corrupting Sisters, BUT if a Sister were isolated from the Sisterhood (or indeed any other Imperial contact) what is to say that she wouldn't be equally vulnerable to the predations of sin or corruption? It is the presence of her fellow Sisters that keeps a Sister on the right path: they help each other along and keep each other strong. Just like not every Sister is a Saint, not every Sister has indomitable faith. Now, I know that many people are going to take issue with this almost immediately, but before you do, consider this: when in a group a person of radical belief will be strengthened by the presence of their fellows and not easily be persuaded, but when alone or otherwise alienated they are much easier to handle (for example, gang members are notorious for being incredibly stubborn and unyielding when amongst their peers, yet when alone or outside of their peers' influence they are much easier to get along with). This brings up the idea of 'followers' and 'true believers', and is worth being discussed, though I shall not so so here. You can rest assured that this topic will be one that I address extensively when I re-write the Fallen Saint section of my series, so if you want to know more about my views I will discuss them at greater length in my story. -L_C Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 @Lady_Canoness: Actually I think you're onto a good point. This same argument also would hold theoretically with Space Marines as they are their fellow Battle Brothers. Is the better track record (admittedly, let us amend this to the better public knowledge track record) of the Adeptus Sororitas have to do with being faithful first, and warriors second versus the marines warriors first and faithful second, or the quality of being physically entirely human versus genetically modified super humans? Is it something organizational, or something about someone chosing a life of service and servitude? It it was something about chosing, it should apply to Space Marines the same as it does for Sisters, but the public 40K knowledge doesn't state that. Are fallen Sisters more common in fluff than publically recorded? Is it all one big Inquisitorial conspiracy? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I think the track record, as it were, comes down to this. Pride. Ah yes, that old chestnut. Space Marines are prime targets for pride. They are taken as young boys- a group that always seems to regard themselves as invinvible, trust me, I know- who are already superior to many of those around them in the harshest environments, transformed into superhuman gods of combat clad in nigh-impenetrable armor and wielding semiauto/auto self-propelled armor piercing mass reactive grenade launchers. Not to mention the occasional chainsaw sword. They are conditioned to believe that they are the literal and figurative descendants of a being who is worshiped as a god (though they don't have to, because they're that cool). They live for centuries and get to the point where they forget what it's like to be human- they can barely understand the weaknesses of a regular human. Other humans think of them as legends and when they do appear, most people probably crap themselves. Compare to Sisters. They're regular humans. Their equipment is similar, and they are regarded with some degree of awe, but they could never imagine being able to do the things a Space Marine can, while a Space Marine lives that dream every day. Pride just isn't as dangerous for them. And if they do get prideful, soon there will be another adamantium bead attached to their Chaplet Ecclesiasticus. Or a stripdown and eviscerator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I think we should also look a the organization of the Sisterhood compared to Marines. Marines are highly individualistic on a chapter to chapter basis under the chapter master. Whatever said master decides, goes, and lets not forget that each master usually brings about some level of reform to the chapter in how they are governed. Now look at the Sisters. Their organization is so huge and steeped in ecclisiarchal tradition that the individual Canoness has virtually no indipendence at all (that's why Sisters have enver had the trait system). Everything is by the book, so far as they are concerned, and there is precious little room for inovation or free thinking. Add to this that Sisters regularly travel between convents so that they never spend their entire lives with the exact same group of women, and you will begin to see that individuality plays no role at all for the Sisters when compared to the Marines. Space Marines are encouraged to take the initiative in many ways, whereas Sisters rarely do because there is always some precedent to follow or something of the like. Pride, as you mentioned Imperialis_Dominatus, also would work into this frame of thought, for between Space Marines they know that each one of them is equal in every way save experience, so the thought of 'Well, if Sicarius can do that, I bet I can do that too!' is more likely to happen than for Sisters (who are not equal to every other Sister) to say "Well, if Celestine can be a Saint, so can I!" Pride and Shame, if you ask me; those have great effects on the Sisters. Also, Space Marines are above those they protect, whereas Sisters are only human. Boiling it all down, I think the biggest reason there aren't any more Fallen Sisters is because they have zero individual freedom when compared to the Space Marines since the massive leviathan which is the Sisterhood is constantly leaning on them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Because of the existence of Repentia, we know that Sisters aren't completely infalible: The Sisters Repentia join the Repentia willingly, and it is stated to be an "extreme" circumstance for them to be put there as a punishment. This is because the Repentia is a place of honor, not of dishonor. It is not like throwing someone into the brig or into a penal legion. There's not really anything else to compare it to. Indeed, it is even suggested that oftentimes, the imperfections that drive a Sister to join the Repentia don't even exist, but that the standards they hold themselves to are so harsh that it causes them instead to believe that they have flaws that aren't there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 The Sisters Repentia join the Repentia willingly, and it is stated to be an "extreme" circumstance for them to be put there as a punishment. This is because the Repentia is a place of honor, not of dishonor. It is not like throwing someone into the brig or into a penal legion. There's not really anything else to compare it to. Note that there are 'extreme' circumstances as you put it, and that the Sisters do collect beads on their chaplets. Just like every other religious order to have existed, sin and penance play a large part in the existence of the Sisterhood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 But again, it is a revereed organization, not an organization of criminals. And we have an explicit statement in the fluff taht says that only one Sister has ever fallen to support it, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 What do Repentia have to do with criminals? Sisters are Humans. Humans are Falible. Sisters are Falible. Argument stands. I'm not saying that Sisters are turning to Chaos in droves and running amok throughout the Imperium, but there comes a time when fluff is too old for its own sake. Remember how Storm Boyz used to worship Khorne? Remember How Berzerkers used to have heavy weapons and jump packs? Remember how the Space Wolves used to brag that they'd never lost a single one of their number to Chaos (now we have Skyrar's Dark Wolves)? Hell, Rumour has it that Orks even used to reproduce sexually in the old old days. Fluff grows, adapts, and evolves with the game itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Argument stands. Just because you make the claim that it stands does not mean that it actually does. Unlike the old khornate Stormboyz, this is one of the things that makes the Sisters who they are. Extreme self-denial, seeking only to serve the Emperor and His Imperium. Through their faith and extreme training they can fight and achieve victories that seem miraculous. And quite frankly, the "corrupted (usually by Slaanesh) sisters" crap has been overdone by fanfiction and etc already, and the fact that in canon they're for all intents and purposes incorruptible is in comparison a breath of fresh air. The Sisters are human and thus not infallible, but that doesn't mean that they cannot also be incorruptible. For example, they might be tricked by Chaos when trying to hunt it down, but they would never worship chaos and turn to chaos. forcing people to think more deeply than "harr harr, carroopteed seestarz" is a good thing, not a bad thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppella Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Just because you make the claim that it stands does not mean that it actually does. Unlike the old khornate Stormboyz, this is one of the things that makes the Sisters who they are. Extreme self-denial, seeking only to serve the Emperor and His Imperium. Through their faith and extreme training they can fight and achieve victories that seem miraculous. And quite frankly, the "corrupted (usually by Slaanesh) sisters" crap has been overdone by fanfiction and etc already, and the fact that in canon they're for all intents and purposes incorruptible is in comparison a breath of fresh air. The Sisters are human and thus not infallible, but that doesn't mean that they cannot also be incorruptible. For example, they might be tricked by Chaos when trying to hunt it down, but they would never worship chaos and turn to chaos. forcing people to think more deeply than "harr harr, carroopteed seestarz" is a good thing, not a bad thing. Pretty much my words exactly. Sisters are who they are because of their faith. So I quote this for truth. Lets also not forget one of our Sisters loudest, and more common battle crys, "Faith, Unfailing!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1771946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 If even one Sister can turn (and some sources can hint at two) then it is possible for more to turn. Once again, though, I am not arguing for a flood-gate effect, all I am saying is that under certain extreme circumstances Sisters can turn. That much is more than proven and cannot be argued against: a sister has already turned, and Sisters are proven to be falible since they are human - if sisters were completely infalible (i.e. perfectly perfect in every way) the repentia and the chaplet with the beads would not exist simply because every sister would be a total paragon incapable of doing wrong. Don't forget that the Space Marines love to say things about loyalty and duty and all that, but that doesn't stop them from falling from grace, so the idea of fallen sisters cannot be refuted on the ground that they are 'faithful and devout'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152108-faith-of-the-sisters/#findComment-1772176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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