Daemons and Chaos

[Brownie]

I am slightly new to W40k. I have played it a few times but don't have my own miniatures.

I at first wanted Daemons...

But am now going to get Chaos (Thousand sons)...

I was actually wondering if you can use bits of the Daemon army (Eg. Tzeentch lord of change and soul grinder) with Chaos space marines?

Please help me answer my question as my friends have so far been extremely confusing.

Thank you all in advance.

[Iron Lord]

yes and no. No, you are stuck with basic lesser daemons in core 40K. Yes- in a 3000 pt battle you can play Apocalypse and mix the two. But only in Apocalypse.

[Brownie]

Though still VERY confusing, it's easier to grasp then my friends...

So what would the basic lesser daemons be?

And so things such as the soul grinder can ONLY be used in conjunction with a chaos army in apocalypse?;)

[Dammeron]

Well, up til very, very recently, daemons and chaos space marines ALWAYS came together as part of the same list (or in the earlier days, as seperate lists that could interact with one another). It has proven to be something of a bad decision on GW's part to seperate them.

[Brownie]

But would you happen to know what the lesser daemons would be? Could I possibly include the lord of change (Big birdy thing of Tzeentch)?

And I agree that that was a bad decision. ;)

[eyescrossed]

No, the chaos lesser daemons are generic without any options or anything - there is no other way to include daemons from Chaos Daemons with Chaos Space Marines.

[Captain Malachi]

At the risk of confusing you further, you can use the models, just not the rules.

[Seahawk]

And I'll take that risk and run with it! You can use a Lord of Change model as itself in a Chaos Daemons army, but in a Chaos Space Marines army the same model is actually a generic Greater Daemon that only has a statline and no abilities. Same with every other daemonic model.

 

In Apocalypse games, you can use the Daemons codex and Chaos codex side by side, allowing you to have a Lord of Change and Chaos Marines together, but not in regular games.

[==Me==]

Normally, you just use all the options within your Codex and nothing else. So CSM can take a Greater Daemon or Lesser Daemons using the stats in the CSM book, but you are free to use any model to represent them (including a Lord of Change).

 

You cannot mix the two Codices.

 

Now, in an Apocalypse game or if your gaming group is ok with it, you can mix and match freely.

[Brownie]

Ah. That, I think, answers my question.

[Vassakov]

There are now two types of Daemons - Summoned and Daemonic Daemons (this being because according to rules technicalities, the Daemons is C:CSM are not actually Daemons... but nevermind.)

 

In C:CSM you will find the rules for fielding Daemons in a CSM army - they come in Greater or Lesser Varities, and of the Generic Flavour. Only those Daemons may be used, though for what they are they are quite nice.

 

In C:CD you find the Daemonic Hordes - Bloodletters, Horrors, Soul Grinders etc. They are an entirely seperate list and function as such.

 

As there are no models for Generic Daemons you are quite welcome to use your Daemons army models to represent them. I imagine most people would also allow you to use a Soulgrinder as a Defiler with 2 CC weapons as well - they are very similar.

 

Apocalypse is no holds barred, Daemons, Traitors, Marines, Guardsman whatever. That is a good overall goal, and is in fact mine :P

[Dammeron]

Ithink most players worth their salt also wouldn't complain about you mixing and matching units from the two chaos codicies in friendly games to a certain degree. I certainly wouldn't.

[Captain Malachi]

Erm, no, Dammeron, most players would not allow it, since it is a blatant attempt to get a more powerful list.

[Seahawk]

Na, it's actually for a more fluffy list, but I see where you're coming from. Simple mechanics tweaks make it balanced just fine.

[Trve]

And I'll take that risk and run with it! You can use a Lord of Change model as itself in a Chaos Daemons army, but in a Chaos Space Marines army the same model is actually a generic Greater Daemon that only has a statline and no abilities. Same with every other daemonic model.

 

In Apocalypse games, you can use the Daemons codex and Chaos codex side by side, allowing you to have a Lord of Change and Chaos Marines together, but not in regular games.

Better yet, use the LoC model as a Daemon Prince in CSM, because DPs are actually...you know...good.

[Dammeron]

Erm, no, Dammeron, most players would not allow it, since it is a blatant attempt to get a more powerful list.

 

Depends on what motivations you have for wanting God specific daemons in your chaos marine army list and how you go about implementing such a confluence.

 

Personally speaking, all of my armies were constructed with reference to prior army lists. My Third Ed Chaos army was the same as the one I played in Second Ed with some very, very minor re-structuring, the army I played in Fourth Ed was the same I played in Third, again with some very minor restructuring. This is the first time in nigh twenty years of playing a Chaos army that I have been forced to seperate vast swathes of my miniatures collection into seperate forces, and I see no good reason for it in terms of either gaming mechanics or background. In point of fact, the only reason I can see for it is entirely corporate (i.e. an attempt to force Chaos players who want more than just generic daemons from their painstakingly modelled, converted and painted daemons to go out and buy an entirely new force in order to make them viable).

 

Not being prepared to go out and buy an entirely new force, I want to be able to use the daemonettes in my Emperors Children army as they have always been in EVERY incarnation of the Chaos Space Marine army lost prior to this one; as Daemonettes. Furthermore, I have a real problem with the situation when daemonettes in a Chaos Space Marine force can go up against daemonettes in a Daemon force looking exactly the same yet functioning differently.

 

As for how god specific daemons can be incorporated into a Chaos Space Marine army list without unbalancing the list itself, it's quite simple:

 

- Instead of generic Greater Daemons or Lesser Daemons, a Chaos Space Marine player may choose to purchase "allied" units from Codex: Chaos Daemons. All Daemons thusly purchased function with all the restrictions listed for Greater and Lesser daemons in Codex: Chaos Space Marines (e.g they must be summoned in accordance with the Chaos Space Marine summoning rules). Furthermore, they now take up compulsory ELITES slots on the Force Organisation Chart.

- Daemons MUST be summoned via Chaos Space Marine models that bear the same Mark of Chaos as their patron deity, or the Mark of Chaos Undivided. Furthermore, daemons summoned as part of a Chaos Space Marine force tend to be somewhat unstable. To represent this, if they happen to stray outside of 12 inches of at least one Chaos Space Marine model bearing the Mark of their patron OR the Mark of Chaos Undivided, they must roll a standard leadership test and suffer a wound for every point by which they fail. Continue to roll once every subsequent turn 'til they return within this range.

[==Me==]

That's not a bad system, Dammeron. The one I had proposed was to simply have the Daemon unit count as 2 of its respective FOC slot (so Daemonettes = 2 Troops, Bloodcrushers = 2 Elites) and uses the summoning rules from the Daemon book (so no assault after summoning). Enough so it isn't broken (Daemons assaulting after DS while Oblits are on the board is stupidly OTT) but still an option for a fluffy army.

[Seahawk]

My system is thusly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May take the following units as allies from Chaos Daemons:

0-1 HQ

0-1 Elites

0-2 Troops

0-1 Fast Attack

 

- These units don't count as scoring

- These units take up FOC slots as usual

- These units must be summoned exactly as in Codex: Chaos Space Marines

- These units must be summoned by units with the same mark as their patron god, or undivided

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So in taking these cool daemons units, they aren't as valuable to the player as well as limiting the amount available. My club has found it a good fit.

[==Me==]

Bloodletters charging after summoning? That's going to be painful.

[Seahawk]

...aaannnnd simply because I want real daemons in my army automatically means it's always Bloodletters. Go fish!

 

It's actually not that bad anyway. If they wipe a unit, they can't hit a new one and so they get shot to pieces because they have a crappy save.

[==Me==]

Well yeah, they annihilate anything on the charge. The reason they cost as little as they do is because they never get to charge upon landing. I can understand the desire to have Daemons to match your marines, but it doesn't seem all that balanced. Take 2 units of 8 Bloodletters and 2 units of Bloodcrushers (3 each I'd say). That's 4 units that are going to be wiped the minute those drop, for less than 500 points. And we're back to everyone's favorite Daemonbomb type armies. 3 biker squads with icons turbo-boost up and it's GG.

[Dammeron]

Well yeah, they annihilate anything on the charge. The reason they cost as little as they do is because they never get to charge upon landing. I can understand the desire to have Daemons to match your marines, but it doesn't seem all that balanced. Take 2 units of 8 Bloodletters and 2 units of Bloodcrushers (3 each I'd say). That's 4 units that are going to be wiped the minute those drop, for less than 500 points. And we're back to everyone's favorite Daemonbomb type armies. 3 biker squads with icons turbo-boost up and it's GG.

 

Easily fixed; a rule stating that daemons may NOT assault directly after being summoned would be rather easy to implement.

[Hellios]

I Play pure 1ksons and I would really like to take a proper Lord of Change and proper Horrors :wallbash: and maybe some screamers, would this be broken? Especially as I don't really intend to charge with them (well maybe the screamers for meltabomb goodness ;))

 

This Is what my 1kson army has

 

HQ

Sorcerer

Generic greater daemon. I would Like to use a Lord of change

 

Troops

Thousand Sons units

Generic lesser daemons. I would like to use Horrors, although in fact I like my generic daemons for combat support the fluff class to me and I'm sure horrors would help against orks :P

 

Other

Sometimes I have tanks Predators/Vindicators/Landraiders but more often than not I don't but thats because I like infantry.

Terminators to keep my sorcerer company + I can actually use Thousand Son terminator rules in Apocalypse.

 

However I would like to use Screamers as well I guess this would help with my anti-tank (which my sorcerers should be able to do...) without having to take vehicles of my own to vehicle bust.

[==Me==]

Easily fixed; a rule stating that daemons may NOT assault directly after being summoned would be rather easy to implement.

 

I agree, it's an easy fix that makes the mix a lot more palatable.

 

 

I Play pure 1ksons and I would really like to take a proper Lord of Change and proper Horrors :wallbash: and maybe some screamers, would this be broken? Especially as I don't really intend to charge with them (well maybe the screamers for meltabomb goodness ;))

 

This Is what my 1kson army has

 

HQ

Sorcerer

Generic greater daemon. I would Like to use a Lord of change

 

Troops

Thousand Sons units

Generic lesser daemons. I would like to use Horrors, although in fact I like my generic daemons for combat support the fluff class to me and I'm sure horrors would help against orks :P

 

Other

Sometimes I have tanks Predators/Vindicators/Landraiders but more often than not I don't but thats because I like infantry.

Terminators to keep my sorcerer company + I can actually use Thousand Son terminator rules in Apocalypse.

 

However I would like to use Screamers as well I guess this would help with my anti-tank (which my sorcerers should be able to do...) without having to take vehicles of my own to vehicle bust.

 

As long as they don't assault after dropping in it shouldn't be too bad. Tzeentch shooting is pretty harsh though, especially when backed up by reliable AT and anti-MEQ.

[Captain Malachi]

With regards to using daemons in chaos armies, where does it end? What if I want to use the better chappys from the BT 'dex in my SM army, would you let me? Afterall, they used to be the same, and this is just one rather weak example, if I could be bothered I'm sure I could come up with others. Come to think of it, let's say I wanted to use Dante or Mephiston from the BA 'dex, what then? They are marines afterall, so if you let players take units from more than one 'dex it's just far too easy imo for the system to be abused, they're in different 'dexes for a reason, and no, it isn't 'cos GW hate chaos players, it's because (and I agree with this) daemons should be in a different codex, the chaos codex is called chaos space marines for a good reason.