Daemons and Chaos

[Dammeron]

With regards to using daemons in chaos armies, where does it end? What if I want to use the better chappys from the BT 'dex in my SM army, would you let me? Afterall, they used to be the same, and this is just one rather weak example, if I could be bothered I'm sure I could come up with others. Come to think of it, let's say I wanted to use Dante or Mephiston from the BA 'dex, what then? They are marines afterall, so if you let players take units from more than one 'dex it's just far too easy imo for the system to be abused, they're in different 'dexes for a reason, and no, it isn't 'cos GW hate chaos players, it's because (and I agree with this) daemons should be in a different codex, the chaos codex is called chaos space marines for a good reason.

 

The difference being that, before the current chaos codex, daemons and chaos space marines were ALWAYS part of the same army list, or at least army lists that can interact to a certain degree. Mephiston, on the other hand, has only ever been part of the Blood Angels army list; there is no precedent either in the gaming mechanics or background for him being included in, for example, a Black Templars force.

 

As for there being a good reason to seperate daemons and chaos space marines, the only one I can see is, as I have already pointed out, entirely corporate in nature, to the detriment of not only established background, but the fun of playing with either army list. The page space excuse so often touted in White Dwarf and GW editorials is utter higawash when one considers that there are 25 pages + wasted in the Chaos Space Marine codex on recycled artwork, very poorly written and superfluous snippets of narrative and miniatures catalogues that can be found everywhere from White Dwarf to the GW website. 25 pages; that's enough to include the entire daemon codex army list AND its attendant special rules. It's certainly enough to provide some mechanism like those suggested above via which the two lists could interact.

[Interrogator Stobz]

hi all,

A bit off topic but how do CDs assault after DS? Nowhere in my codex does it say they can and the BBoR says you can not.

Is it FAC'd or something?

[Captain Malachi]

@Stobz: Daemons from the CSM 'dex can assault after DSing, the daemons from the deamon 'dex can't, as far as I know the generic daemons from the CSM 'dex can only do it as it's part of the summoning rule.

 

@Dammeron: I used mephiston as an example, my point was, there are going to be other libbys out there with similar powers, so no, not in a BT force as they hate psykers, but in a standard SM force it would make sense, as for why daemons should be seperated, it's because daemons do not only fight as slaves to chaos marines, in fact this is probably not all that common, daemons fight for their patron God, now if khorne wants to fight alongside some chaos marines, that's one thing, but they should have their own codex as more often than not, daemons want the glory all for themselves.

[Dammeron]

@Stobz: Daemons from the CSM 'dex can assault after DSing, the daemons from the deamon 'dex can't, as far as I know the generic daemons from the CSM 'dex can only do it as it's part of the summoning rule.

 

@Dammeron: I used mephiston as an example, my point was, there are going to be other libbys out there with similar powers, so no, not in a BT force as they hate psykers, but in a standard SM force it would make sense, as for why daemons should be seperated, it's because daemons do not only fight as slaves to chaos marines, in fact this is probably not all that common, daemons fight for their patron God, now if khorne wants to fight alongside some chaos marines, that's one thing, but they should have their own codex as more often than not, daemons want the glory all for themselves.

 

Ah, I see where the contention lies now. Don't get me wrong; I like the idea that there IS a seperate army list for daemons (they always did have a seperate army list right up 'til the original Third Ed Chaos Codex, when they were relegated to little more than a supporting role). However, I don't see why this comes at the detriment to their presence in Chaos Space Marine armies (other than the fact of course that GW want established chaos players to scamper out and buy new daemon armies to make their existing daemon miniatures viable).

 

In all of the background thus far published, right back from the RoC days, Chaos Space Marines have ALWAYS relied on daemons to support them, and it is particularly common in armies such as The Black Legion, The Word Bearers and the various "cult" legions (as established in the appropriate I.A articles and various bits and pieces from pre-existing codicies).

 

Ideally, there should be a situation in which we have WHOLE army lists for both forces that are allowed to interact via a well thought out mechanism.

[Hellios]

@Dammeron: I used mephiston as an example, my point was, there are going to be other libbys out there with similar powers, so no, not in a BT force as they hate psykers, but in a standard SM force it would make sense, as for why daemons should be seperated, it's because daemons do not only fight as slaves to chaos marines, in fact this is probably not all that common, daemons fight for their patron God, now if khorne wants to fight alongside some chaos marines, that's one thing, but they should have their own codex as more often than not, daemons want the glory all for themselves.

 

Well a first difference is that Mephiston is a Unique individual pretty much while even a Bloodletter is still a generic "bloodletter" (Technically successors of the blood angels are allowed to have him as well but that's so people don't get penalized for the paint scheme they use.) As for the Black templars chaplain much like with how DA and BA's now have different rules for chapters it should be standardised (Not this use the new stuff in C:SM as long as your friend says yes which the current FAQ gives us.) so that they all use the same rules except for example a chapter was famed for power librarians and if it has its own codex that's Ok!

 

The big argument is that daemons and CSM should not be in different books. Daemonic incursions with daemons by themselves are extremely rare although when they happen it can be an entire world totally flooded with them. Daemons are far more likely to appear summoned by followers of chaos (cultists of CSM) although they will often be in lesser number than they would appear in if a daemonic incursion was to happen by itself.

 

I agree on not mixing codices although in a friendly environment if you have informed your opponent and they ae ok with it I think its good. As long as your not doing to try and over power your list. Do I have a problem with DA players having a 3+ SS instead of a $+ one? Or DA players using a Thunderfire cannon? No because thats perfectly reasonable, I would object to a DA player using Calgar in his army as the DA's are not supposed to have him. The same idea is that a Thousands Sons army would not summon "Generic daemons" they would be sent Horrors by their patron Tzeentch. Also not all summoned daemons are enslaved to the chaos space marines in theory it would be possible for some to turn upon the marines.

[Vassakov]

Ideally, there should be a situation in which we have WHOLE army lists for both forces that are allowed to interact via a well thought out mechanism.

 

We do. It's called "Apocalypse." You can bring your Traitor Guard and Daemon Engines as well, to boot.

[Captain Malachi]

Ideally, there should be a situation in which we have WHOLE army lists for both forces that are allowed to interact via a well thought out mechanism.

 

We do. It's called "Apocalypse." You can bring your Traitor Guard and Daemon Engines as well, to boot.

 

See that's my solution, in large battles their presence won't be overpowering, whereas in a small game they're just too strong, they're balanced in the context of the daemon codex, they were not designed to be used with the CSM codex. Now, if there was an ally system in place it would be different, mainly as they would have been balanced with it in mind.

[Dammeron]

Ideally, there should be a situation in which we have WHOLE army lists for both forces that are allowed to interact via a well thought out mechanism.

 

We do. It's called "Apocalypse." You can bring your Traitor Guard and Daemon Engines as well, to boot.

 

See that's my solution, in large battles their presence won't be overpowering, whereas in a small game they're just too strong, they're balanced in the context of the daemon codex, they were not designed to be used with the CSM codex. Now, if there was an ally system in place it would be different, mainly as they would have been balanced with it in mind.

 

Unfortunately, "just use apocalypse" is not a viable excuse for lazy or inadequate rules design. A system such as that I and others have suggested above would've been very, very easy to implement and include as an optional extra in the codicies in question, especially considering the amount of space wasted. Also, in Apocalypse, Eldar can use daemons, Imperial Guard can use Necron technology; it is not viable for those of us that want to play a standard game of 40K with a half way decent rules set.

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

Ideally, there should be a situation in which we have WHOLE army lists for both forces that are allowed to interact via a well thought out mechanism.

 

We do. It's called "Apocalypse." You can bring your Traitor Guard and Daemon Engines as well, to boot.

 

The lazy way of dealing with shoddy army design. Stop using this line please, it's rather tiring having heard it for the umpteenth time.

 

All we do at my local club is allow daemons to have a mark of chaos. Although not a full remedy, it allows a degree of god specific choice.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Just to throw in, GW has already made the statement that there will be CSM specific codices in the same way that we have separate loyal SM army rules today. As far as the cults are concerned, it’s fairly obvious that Berserkers & Bloodletters will be the core troop choices for a Khorne/World Eater based Codex and so on and so forth. Give them another 18 – 24 months and we’ll see what they come up with.

 

That being said, I personally miss Chaos legions like the Word Bearers and their specific aptitude of using summoned troops on the battle field. The original, “Daemon Bomb” army was one to be reckoned with. It just doesn’t have the same flare using generic daemons. I hope there will be room to see them come back into their own as well.

 

It’s almost too much to hope for an updated Chaos codex that covered both the cults and the other major legions from 3rd edition. While I’m wishing, I wish the Legion of the Damned would come back as well. All of which could be made more interesting given the recent investment in the rules for daemons.

 

Hopefully we’ll learn more along the course of this year.

 

-OMG

[Captain Malachi]

Also, in Apocalypse, Eldar can use daemons, Imperial Guard can use Necron technology; it is not viable for those of us that want to play a standard game of 40K with a half way decent rules set.

Can yes, but any player with even a hint of respect for the background won't do that. As I said, if there had been an ally system used I'd be ok with it, but there wasn't, and daemons were not balanced with the intention of being used in a CSM army, no matter what restrictions you place on them, they are still overpowered in a CSM army.

[Hellios]

Also, in Apocalypse, Eldar can use daemons, Imperial Guard can use Necron technology; it is not viable for those of us that want to play a standard game of 40K with a half way decent rules set.

Can yes, but any player with even a hint of respect for the background won't do that. As I said, if there had been an ally system used I'd be ok with it, but there wasn't, and daemons were not balanced with the intention of being used in a CSM army, no matter what restrictions you place on them, they are still overpowered in a CSM army.

 

Well the Imperial Guard could be humans who worship the C'tan so its possible to make a fluffy story ^_^ not the daemons and eldar tho...

 

Also with restrictions and point alterations anything in the daemons codex could be made balanced with CSM. The biggest thing to look for would be rules in the two codices which combined together could create a point of abuse and those rules amended for when they are used together.

[Brownie]

Thank you all for you input into this most crucial topic (for me anyway) and I have gotten a great deal from this and now also know that the club I'm in couldn't care either way. THANKS! :blush:

[Iron Lord]

daemons and Eldar- skip the Incubi rumours and go "Ahra, Father of Scorpions, who burns with the dark light of Chaos, and his renegades, plus allied daemons"

[Soupcat]

Just adding my 2 cent in waaaay later:

For all those who are adding codex deamons to your CSM armies... how do you account for the "going poof" discount all deamons have.

IE bloodletters are at least 5 if not 10 points cheaper then they should have been which accommodates for the fact that you are most likely going to lose at least 100 points to deep striking mishaps?

[Seahawk]

In the dozen or so games I've played with Daemons, I haven't lost a single one to a deep strike mishap. The chance is slim to none, really. I account for the lower cost by not allowing them to assault on the turn they arrive like summoned daemons.